Posted by Storm:

It seems that many of the threads here have a similar overtone to them ..... and that is understanding the intent of actions and words of both Dominants and submissives.

It seems to me that although the Novices step over the threshold onto this world ...... curious and with many questions .... the fact that they are still grounded in the years of vanilla standards and expectations is often overlooked.

By that i mean ...... IMHO ..... the novice Dominant equates being dominant to controlling ..... but the reference point is from a vanilla aspect of telling someone what to do while the novice submissive equates submissiveness as doing what one is told to do again from the vanilla side of the fence.

Since the vast majority of novices as well as experienced BDSMers hone in on the sexual aspect of the lifestyle it seems almost guaranteed that the novice Dominant feels that a new submissive should "be willing to experience the sexual" almost immediately ..... while the novice submissive feels obligated to "submit to sexual requests" immediately.

i am also wondering if that concept might explain why when the novice ventures out into the cyber world ..... there is an unwritten expectation on both sides of the spectrum that Dominates should act "DOMINANT" and the submissives should act "submissive" in order that they be recognized as such. Unfortunately ..... it seems to be done with the vanilla twist ..... which creates misunderstandings all over the place. Add the fact that "the being human" element is all but forgotten and confusion reigns.

Is this a valid thought or am i just "looking for excuses?"

Storm

Dear Storm,
"The novice Dominant equates being dominant to controlling."
Very true. This was something that I struggled greatly with in finding what label fit who I am and what I do. It wasn't that I was adapting my style to meet others' expectations. Rather, I honestly wasn't sure if "Domme" actually described me.

"The reference point is from a vanilla aspect of telling someone what to do while the novice submissive equates submissiveness as doing what one is told to do again from the vanilla side of the fence."
I think that in many cases, this is true. In others, it seems that novice Dominants and submissives correlate topping and bottoming (who is holding the whip or wearing the collar) to dominating someone, or submitting. I have actually heard someone tell their "submissive" "Here's a collar and leash. Go find yourself a submissive." I think that that mentality is silly, at best, and dangerous at worst.

"The novice Dominant feels that a new submissive should "be willing to experience the sexual" almost immediately ..... while the novice submissive feels obligated to "submit to sexual requests" immediately."
This fits in perfectly with my topic of the week from two weeks ago. Many people on both sides seem to think that participating in BDSM is a quick way to get kinky, no-strings-attached sex. Submissive is not equivalent to slut, nor are all Dominants out to get sexual immediately.

"Dominates should act "DOMINANT" and the submissives should act "submissive" in order that they be recognized as such."
I think that the current "cybersex" situation on many sites leads to the "instant Dominant/Submissive - just add water" mentality. If you aren't clearly one, you must be the other. As a Domme, with it clearly stated in my profile, I have had people approach me to chat with an opening of "On your knees, slave." Such people don't deserve any response.

I think that this was a valid, and valuable, thought. I admire your clear, philosophical posts. They always help me to think more about what lies beneath the surface. :)

Storm,
      not to put to fine a point on it, but you are (in my not so humble opinion) dead on balls accurate. I think that while the bdsm community as a whole has preached accpetance for years, that as a whole, there has been no plan on what to teach them when new people arrive, thus it has been very hit and miss. When you add the very sexual over tones of bdsm into the mix it certainly helps muddy the waters, particularly of those starting out. Cybersex and chat rooms....I ain't even gonna touch that one lol. I do think that something that is not often clearly expressed is that regardless of which side of the fence you are on, be it dominant or submissive, one of the first things that needs to occur before you can truly understand and be successful as what we do, is that you must not only accept what and who you are, but be at peace with it. Its hard to teach someone to be at peace with themselves, but it is a needed step.

OP,
   I agree with most everything that you said here.

Justin Medlin

Thank you, memneth. As a relative newbie to the Scene, it's good to hear that from you. :)

I might be wrong.

(Confession time -- I've been wrong before.)

Isn't it the same in all worlds that in the quest for the person(s) that are the person(s) for you and you for him/her/them/any combo of the preceding, it is the misto between/among you that makes it work? That involves exploration and discovery. Patience too. Fortunately the sexual component is there to help with the patience in learning what is right for the two or more of you together.

There are no hard *or* soft rules. It's what works for the people involved, that which finally allows the submissive to go on knees in total realization and acquiesce of what s/he is in relationship to the one to whom s/he lifts eyes in adoration.

And that takes more than sex. But sex helps you get there.

And stay there.

A-hem.

I'll go away now.

From: Thorn4MyRose
(general posting)

The only perspectives I can offer on this one are from the other end of the spectrum, because I cannot really ever remember a time where I've applied 'vanilla standards' to anything in my own journey. I'll qualify what I'm about to write, however, by adding that when I first became 'kink aware', there were no mainstream books on the subject(s), few organizations/groups, and Al hadn't invented the internet yet. <g>

In many ways, I'm envious of those who had (have) the opportunity to seek understanding of BDSM styles of living through web-based resources simply because of the convenience of it all. Does that circumstance create an entirely new paradigm of what to expect, how to act, and how to measure it all? Sure it does. But there seems to be many exceptional advantages to having these amazing venues which outweigh the potential pitfalls. Let me put it this way: When you can go about seeking fundamental knowledge and understanding, and can apply enough common sense to be able to weed out the nonsense, all without ever leaving the relative safety of your own home, I'd have to say that's pretty remarkable. Certainly, it's extremely convenient.

The flip-side of that is that very often, convenience breeds laziness. Without practical application, the knowledge really has little value. Does 'cyber-applying' really count in that regard, by the way? Well, you decide that for yourself. For the most part though, I think that when you're seeking, assessing, and developing anything, it's the personal investment in the journey that ultimately defines whether or not you feel it's succeeding. Perhaps it IS a matter (for some people) of believing they've overcome 'vanilla standards' in order to feel that they have come through the 'novice' stage of their journey into BDSM. Personally, and again, this is mostly because of the unique circumstances in my own initial exposure, I have come to believe that it's not so much a matter of overcoming any lack of knowledge or anyone else's standards, but getting to a point in your exploration where you begin to ACTIVELY APPLY knowledge to form your OWN standards -- and feel comfortable enough to believe in them.

Having said all of that, my summary point is simply this (and I'm sure I've said this in other threads): No matter how well-developed you believe your understanding, standards, and applications to be, NEVER STOP SEEKING. Never stop digging deeper. Make it a trip which perpetually has fresh, exciting 'scenery' ahead by conscious design.

Remember that it IS a journey...not a destination. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

To Thorn.......

Yes, i do agree that your journey has been far different from mine ...

..... It is apparent from your posts that you are a Dominant in ALL aspects of your life ... very methodical .... definitely knowledgeable ..... and not in this for “kinky sex” only, although i am sure that you find that it all fits together.

*****The only perspectives I can offer on this one are from the other end of the spectrum, because I cannot really ever remember a time where I've applied 'vanilla standards' to anything in my own journey. I'll qualify what I'm about to write, however, by adding that when I first became 'kink aware', there were no mainstream books on the subject(s), few organizations/groups, and Al hadn't invented the internet yet. <g>“****

And that statement says much about the major differences between someone who has begun where you have and someone like me. If i am in error, please forgive me, but one of the things that seems to be apparent is that you began your journey at a much younger age then i did ....... and although your life had much vanilla before your journey, it was not nearly as imbedded as was mine.

I would also venture a guess that your “kink awareness” did not stem from an accidental “walk on the kink side” ... with no previous thoughts about aspects of this lifestyle. Does it matter ...... probably only because it may take some time to get over the “culture shock” ...... as well as the “mental block” that years, and i do mean years of vanilla life has provided.

i also think that in some respects because there was little that was formal ... little that was written and very few formal organizations that perhaps you had a freedom to set your own course that is really not all that clear today. Coming into this lifestyle now does have the advantage of the net ... of chat rooms ... of mainstream books ... and social groups ........... but i tend to lean on the side that in many respects in only increases the confusion. At least initially or if you are going solo. As a couple .... it seems to be a bit easier to explore where you are ... where you think you want to go ...... and how you want or need to get there.

******When you can go about seeking fundamental knowledge and understanding, and can apply enough common sense to be able to weed out the nonsense, all without ever leaving the relative safety of your own home, I'd have to say that's pretty remarkable. Certainly, it's extremely convenient. “

Remarkable ...... yes; ......convenient ...... yes again. Also very dangerous for the abused .. sheltered ..... or old farts like me. <g> i am sort of kidding , but i am also serious. Transitioning is so much easier when there are fewer years of “social brainwashing” ....... minimal pendulum “swings in public opinions” ....... and life experiences that mirror aspects of the lifestyle but in an entirely different format.

i must say honestly that, imho, the younger one is ........ the less chained to the “social norms” one is. As for common sense .......... now that is a good statement ..... but as with everything else it is also subjective. i mean, sure it is common sense that if one holds their hand under scalding hot water ... the likelihood of getting burned is a definite. But what if one has never known scalding water ...... then that piece of common sense is not applicable.

Now i do not mean to seem difficult ..... nor do i mean any disrespect ...... but everyone comes from a different place. It seems to have become the American way to fall back to the “If you want to then you can” attitude or the words “convenience breeds laziness. “ It is often very easy to question another's method of awakening when one has been very comfortable where they are for a rather long time. Remembering the beginnings is so often tinged with the veil of forgetfulness.

i do agree that sooner or later you have to take that plunge into the “real “ of this lifestyle. i also agree that one must be active ........... it just takes some longer to feel emotional safe then it does others. i am well aware that i continue to struggle with the vanilla reaction to BDSM interactions. i am also well aware that at the point i am ... i NEED and i do mean NEED an openness to my thoughts and ideas so that i can sort them out myself. i also NEED to know that i am appreciated for me ....... all of my little glitches .... all of the baggage that i know i still need to rid myself of ...... all of the survival techniques that i have learned over the years ..... for then i do not have to hold so tight to them to feel safe and secure.

*******No matter how well-developed you believe your understanding, standards, and applications to be, NEVER STOP SEEKING. Never stop digging deeper. Make it a trip which perpetually has fresh, exciting 'scenery' ahead by conscious design.
Remember that it IS a journey...not a destination. ;-) ****

i do agree with this but would add that if any of you feel that you need a kick in the ass to get moving ... or to be a bit more open ...... ask for it cause i am sure there will be more than one person who will enjoy assisting you.

There is also something else that i have learned ...... share your views ... your experiences .... and your thoughts ... but remember to be as open in listening to the replies as you are you giving the opinions. There is just so much to learn about oneself and others.

Storm