From: Thorn4MyRose

As there seems to be a pretty wide mix of experience levels for people posting to this board, I thought the subject of 'limits' might be a nice 'topic of the week'.

As food for thought and discussion about the subject, please consider the following:

Do you believe that it is a dominant's responsibility to FIND where a submissive's 'true' limits are? Or is it a submissive's responsibility to KNOW where his/her 'basic' limits are and communicate them clearly to the dominant prior to engaging in any activities?

Is there really a differentiation between 'hard' (will NEVER do under any circumstances) and 'soft' (might do under certain circumstances) limits? In other words, is a 'soft' limit really a limit at all then (considering that you WOULD do it) or is it really just a preference (or non-preference)?

Is it a core belief of yours that a dominant's focal role is to 'push' limits? If so, what do you think it does to the dominant's credibility in his/her role when they push past a limit, even if unintentionally?

What about if they rarely 'push enough'? Is there a possibility, in your opinion, that they might be holding back (by believing they might accidentally 'break' a limit)? If so, how should a submissive respond to such a perception? Should they focus on their own desires for 'more' or 'be happy' that the dominant is not breaking their limit(s)?

Finally, if you're experienced in 'bdsm' activities, how did YOU arrive at your perception of your current limits? What factors ultimately helped you decide which activities you would do and which you wouldn't?

I hope you believe this is a relevant topic and enjoy discussing it.

Be safe.
Thorn

Hi Thorn and Board

Limits............. That is rather interesting that you should ask about that. I have not had much experience with many of the things that one might find on a check list, but I have given the idea of limits a lot of thought.

At this point in my exploration, I have but one limit and it is a HARD limit. It is a limit that I will Never go beyond. That limit is children.

As far as anything else, I would have to say that with the right person, where I trusted with no reservations what so ever, I would probably try anything that was asked of me ...... at least one time.

I do not know if that is sane or not, but it is how I feel. I have no soft limits, but perhaps as I gain experience I may find that I do.

As for the other questions, I really can not comment on them because of the fact that I have not been that intense of a relationship. The Dom who introduced me to this lifestyle was rather mild and mostly into things that he wanted to have someone try on him.

When I get more experience perhaps I will have a different answer, but for now I do not.

Storm

i'm afraid i don't have the time to give you input on all of your questions, Thorn (Master and i are out of town, and have a fancy dress affair in about an hour), but i would like to make a comment. i use the word "boundaries" instead of "soft limits"; those are the things that change over time, because they don't directly conflict with my value system or principles. Those are purely a matter of personal taste, and all sorts of things influence them. i use the word "limit" for those things that i feel would compromise my values. Master might challenge my boundaries, but he'd never try to make me exceed my limits, because his limits are basically the same as mine, and he understands their place in my mental and emotional well-being.

Peace, firebaby

Well, I'll give it a shot. My Dom and I still use the negotiation play checklist (found on all of the websites). Our first one set our initial limits, which was two years ago. Over the past two years, we have re-visited that checklist a couple of times and revised our interests, and limits. In our situation, we have a safe word, but it has never been used, primarily because my Dom knows me well enough (and I trust him enough) to know what limits he can push (and he does) and how far he should push them (at that moment anyway).

So to answer your first question, I think it is up to the Dom to know their sub's limits, and once they get to know their sub well enough, they will know what limits they can push (if any). But it is also up to the sub to communicate their limits, which ones might be pushed and those that are absolute.

I had two of my "off limits" or absolutely "no way limits" changed when we re-visited our checklist, so never say never!

As for the rest of your questions, it comes down to communication. If the sub feels her limits are not being pushed enough, then she needs to communicate that back to her Dom.

The Dom's focal point is not pushing limits, but the care, safety, nurturing, loving, and mentoring of the sub (assisting them to be the best person they can be). It would be hard to do some of that if they did not push limits.

Well, there's a lot of potential discussion (I could ramble more) but it all comes down to communication, which continues throughout the relationship, not just in the beginning.

Respectfully,

Wildflower

From: Thorn4MyRose

Isn't it interesting how when you don't know what you don't know, you BELIEVE certain things are 'absolutes' (until someone comes along and suddenly helps you to find out differently)? <grin>

Just try to imagine, for example, how many 'vanilla' people out there BELIEVE (because they either have nothing to excite their imaginations or no other experienced point of reference) that their 'hard limits' begin at 'taking their clothes off with the lights on'. When you consider that sort of thing, you might have some idea of exactly how open YOU are to what is really possible (and accordingly, expand your OWN possibilities).

My personal philosophy is that there isn't such a thing as a 'soft' limit. There may be things that you won't do with someone who you haven't developed enough trust with yet, but that's not a limit. It's a choice. It's being SAFE and SANE. It's saying that you're open to the possibility AS LONG AS your partner can demonstrate conclusively that they can perform their part of the activity and still keep you safe from injury or emotional harm.

Conversely, something you know you don't LIKE to do, but WILL do because you have been given reason to believe that it will give your partner pleasure, isn't a 'soft' limit either (primarily because you WILL do it, but also because you end up finding you DO gain pleasure from it by giving such intense pleasure to your partner). Again, it's a choice. It's a choice that's made based on your clear understanding that there is a special purpose behind your participating in the activity.

A 'true' limit (as opposed to hard or soft), therefore, is something that clearly and unequivocally conflicts with your personal ethics or values (as eloquently alluded to in Firebaby's post, above). For example, if involving children in your bdsm activities is a limit for you, it's because you realize the immorality or illegality of doing so (ethics). You realize that it can easily do tremendous emotional harm to the child or be abusive because a child cannot give legal and informed consent to the activity (values). Make sense? If it does, then what you actually have is a formula of sorts for determining what your TRUE limits really might be. (Incidentally, it works equally well for novice dominants when developing your own interests and desires.)

Since Storm and Wildflower brought up the point about using checklists, I feel compelled to offer what I view as two core philosophical problems with generic lists. They are:

1. The concept behind these things (as I've seen them) is for the submissive, on their own and without any duress or haste, to rate their interest (or lack of it) in specific bdsm activities and to express whether or not they've ever actually tried that activity before. Seems to make some sense until you consider that if the submissive is a novice, then it's likely they cannot really make an educated rating. What they are more likely to do is rate themselves based on how the way the activity is expressed on the list 'makes them FEEL' at THAT particular moment. Even if the submissive has tried a form of that activity before, how is the submissive supposed to KNOW that they are interpreting the activity the same way the dominant is (since they're supposed to be doing this on their own)? The point is that the activities themselves, because they're so personal, can be interpreted many different ways. Which leads to point 2...

2. A generic list, in my opinion (IMO), is an indication that the dominant doesn't have enough self-control and clear understanding of his/her OWN desires to have consciously taken the time to create their OWN list with specific activities and clear explanations/example of HOW they enjoy them. If a dominant wants to clearly establish a foundation that they're well organized in their philosophies, needs and desires, and help inspire trust and confidence in the submissive from the outset, making them fill out someone ELSE'S checklist seems to counter that goal.

Personally, I think that while they do have SOME basic merits, checklists make the developing relationship more like setting up a VCR rather than inspiring open and uninhibited communication. And then when the relationship keeps blinking 12:00, people wonder why.

The moral of the story: Talk. Talk. Talk. And then talk some more. A dominant who knows what they're doing (and if you choose to call that a 'gift' or not in the thread about "The Gift of Dominance" is up to you <grin>) demonstrates control and inspires the submissive by guiding them PERSONALLY and seizing EVERY opportunity to expand interpersonal communication. Sending the submissive off to go make up her own mind about what s/he might like is just plain lazy, IMO.

Be safe.
T

Thorn,

When people ask me what my limits are and i tell them that i don't have any (ok, kids/animals) it's not because i am wide open and super kinky, it's because i have no preconceived notions about an activity. Since it's ALL new, i simply don't know how i will respond--and my limited experience has already taught me that things i thought i probably wouldn't like, i do (because i want to please Him). i can read about something but it is usually very generic or high level and never can a written description, no matter how complete, tell me how i will react/relate to the activity. i am finding that the more i trust, the more receptive i am to pleasing Him, and the more extreme/edgy His play can become. (i often wonder on the 1 - 10 scale where He takes me)

Once i have experienced something i try to process my feelings to see how i feel, and why i feel that way---
(and yes, most of the time i find that i like an activity because HE likes it and derives pleasure from it, not because it's my personal preference). Of course there are always nuances and increments within a given activity too, so saying that i like being caned doesn't mean i want to be caned by anyone but Him--and there's a big difference in 5 strokes vs 20, natural vs synthetic, warmed-up and cold. IMHO, the lists are way too general and i would (theoretically) only use them for ideas.

Others chastise me for not pre-negotiating my scenes with my Trainer/Master but what i try to explain is that i trust Him to bring me along at a reasonable pace and not spring anything extreme on me until He thinks i am ready. So far i have not denied Him anything He has requested but He also knows what intimidates me and doesn't need to push me there yet. We/we communicate, and that seems to be all that is necessary.

Hi, Thorn and others.

I'd like to add to this that dominants have limits too. So, from a yin and yang point of view....I'd like to ask subs here if they feel they ought to know (or be told) what their dominant's limits are?

I've known subs who try to push and manipulate doms into giving them experiences the dom him/herself isn't ready for. Should a dom be expected to satisfy a sub's needs, even if they break his/her own limits? I suspect many subs feel that if and when a dom doesn't want to go as far with something, that the dom is either a wimp or needs to be pushed (by the sub).

My limits as a dom have expanded incredibly over time. The very first time I saw a hard whipping, which left big burning welts, I was horrified and told myself I'd never go there. That was 15 yrs. ago. I've gone there. And way beyond. :-) But had a sub convinced me to do that back then...I think it might've been kind of traumatic, frankly. I just didn't have the self-confidence or experience. I would've scared myself.

Glory

i too believe that dominants have what i'd call boundaries and limits, and that they deserve the same respect that a submissive expects for his/hers.

And lace, i think that saying you have "no limits" is misleading. As i understand you, you're just not certain of your limits, which isn't the same as saying you don't have any. There's nothing wrong with telling someone that you don't know the answer to that question; it's vastly preferable, in my opinion, to confess uncertainty than to profess knowledge that you don't have. i have heard (online, that is) a sub say that she doesn't have any limits, and she thought she meant just that. After some questioning, though, i learned that she meant that her dominant and she had the same limits, so anything he asked of her, she was perfectly willing to do. i found it odd that she rebelled against that opinion, apparently feeling it made her "less" of a submissive if she claimed to have any personal limits. Oh well, everyone has an individual view on the world, i guess. And it's also true that i've been told on more than one occasion (okay, more than a dozen occasions) that i tend to read things more literally than they're intended.

Glory, i can relate to the changes over time thing. Recently a friend of mine told me she was vastly impressed with the intensity of the play i enjoyed; the thought of that level of play, though, a few years ago would have sent me running like a scalded dog, no doubt.

Peace, firebaby

Hi Glory and all,

Briefly, yes, Dom's have limits too, that is why for us, we use the checklist and re-negotiate about every few months or so... the checklist on the web is primarily for sexual play, so we have a checklist customized for a 24/7 TPE lifestyle as well. The reason for this, is just like you said above, we grow and change with experiences, needs and interests... as in sexual play, things can change in our daily lifestyle (work schedules, kid visitations, etc).

Wildflower

Glory,

As I was running down the messages, I was also thinking about the Dom's limits, as well. When we think about limits, mostly the talk is about moral limits (kids, animals, corpses), or pain limits. It's easy to draw a line when you can see someone bleeding or when you are requested to engage in something that you KNOW might put the person in the hospital. It gets trickier when you are doing something that is not physically dangerous, but which might be mentally dangerous to the bottom. Some people like to engage in scenes involving heavy humiliation, verbal abuse, and psycho drama. How do you judge what might be going "too far" for the bottom then? How do you safely push the limits?

Nightheron

Hi, Thorn and others.

I'd like to add to this that dominants have limits too. So, from a yin and yang point of view....I'd like to ask subs here if they feel they ought to know (or be told) what their dominant's limits are?

I've known subs who try to push and manipulate doms into giving them experiences the dom him/herself isn't ready for. Should a dom be expected to satisfy a sub's needs, even if they break his/her own limits? I suspect many subs feel that if and when a dom doesn't want to go as far with something, that the dom is either a wimp or needs to be pushed (by the sub).

My limits as a dom have expanded incredibly over time. The very first time I saw a hard whipping, which left big burning welts, I was horrified and told myself I'd never go there. That was 15 yrs. ago. I've gone there. And way beyond. :-) But had a sub convinced me to do that back then...I think it might've been kind of traumatic, frankly. I just didn't have the self-confidence or experience. I would've scared myself.

Glory

i too believe that dominants have what i'd call boundaries and limits, and that they deserve the same respect that a submissive expects for his/hers.

And lace, i think that saying you have "no limits" is misleading. As i understand you, you're just not certain of your limits, which isn't the same as saying you don't have any. There's nothing wrong with telling someone that you don't know the answer to that question; it's vastly preferable, in my opinion, to confess uncertainty than to profess knowledge that you don't have. i have heard (online, that is) a sub say that she doesn't have any limits, and she thought she meant just that. After some questioning, though, i learned that she meant that her dominant and she had the same limits, so anything he asked of her, she was perfectly willing to do. i found it odd that she rebelled against that opinion, apparently feeling it made her "less" of a submissive if she claimed to have any personal limits. Oh well, everyone has an individual view on the world, i guess. And it's also true that i've been told on more than one occasion (okay, more than a dozen occasions) that i tend to read things more literally than they're intended.

Glory, i can relate to the changes over time thing. Recently a friend of mine told me she was vastly impressed with the intensity of the play i enjoyed; the thought of that level of play, though, a few years ago would have sent me running like a scalded dog, no doubt.

Peace, firebaby

Hi Glory and all,

Briefly, yes, Dom's have limits too, that is why for us, we use the checklist and re-negotiate about every few months or so... the checklist on the web is primarily for sexual play, so we have a checklist customized for a 24/7 TPE lifestyle as well. The reason for this, is just like you said above, we grow and change with experiences, needs and interests... as in sexual play, things can change in our daily lifestyle (work schedules, kid visitations, etc).

Wildflower

Glory,

As I was running down the messages, I was also thinking about the Dom's limits, as well. When we think about limits, mostly the talk is about moral limits (kids, animals, corpses), or pain limits. It's easy to draw a line when you can see someone bleeding or when you are requested to engage in something that you KNOW might put the person in the hospital. It gets trickier when you are doing something that is not physically dangerous, but which might be mentally dangerous to the bottom. Some people like to engage in scenes involving heavy humiliation, verbal abuse, and psycho drama. How do you judge what might be going "too far" for the bottom then? How do you safely push the limits?

Nightheron

I agree with Gloria, I am glad my M has limits - he doesn't like blood from whippings and most definitely isn't into scat - thank god! I thought I would never be into vaginal fisting, and oh my god now i beg for it. I am small framed person and thought that women who would do that would never be able to satisfy a woman and that it was gross, needless to say I learned from my own body and research that it is definitely not the case. You learn with time what you can handle and what you enjoy or what your partner is able to teach you, sometimes though as I have said before, I wish he would go a little further - but alas he hates the really deep marks - perhaps in time.

Of course, Dom's can have other limits. I once knew a woman who loved to be spanked. The only trouble was her ass was a lot tougher than my hand.

Nightheron

Nightheron,

That's why God created paddles.

xx,

Glory

I kinda like the soft nylon ropes - he can swing that thing to where the whish sound just sends shivers up my spine - and the sting is AWESOME, hand spanks are just a friggin tease to me anyway

I am a domme...and I DEFINITELY have limits...without limits I would fear for the sub...and for myself...
limits..like manners..are a necessary component in all aspects of life...
But I do see that the more I experience the more my boundaries and limits are opened up even more...Knowledge is power..

When i was new to the lifestyle i was always scared when i heard someone say they had no limits. Many hours were spent in chat rooms arguing this. Now 2 years later when i hear those words they are usually followed by "well except for etc etc". i have found that many of my limits have changed several times over *s*. i think defining soft and hard limits is a better way to go about this discussion.

When Master 1st received my limits list He said to me "baby, can I touch you at all?" Today we laugh about this.

And yes, He has limits also *s* hard and soft. We did the BDSM checklist together and still go over it, its a good guide.

fire