I've been working on updates to the links catalogue, and sorting through the hundreds of requests. As you know, I visit every site before agreeing to link to them. While surfing a wide range of prodomme links, I've noticed what appears to be a growing trend among the pay-for-perversion set: mandatory tributes.

The concept of tributes is not new, of course. I'll admit I was a bit taken aback a few years ago when I noticed that a few prodommes also posted "wish lists," i.e., gifts they wanted clients and potential clients to buy them. One of the more hilarious wish-lists included modest little trinkets such as...a NEW CAR! A HOUSE! (I recall she even specified that it had to be a BIG house, with luxurious fittings, of course, as befitted her own image of herself.)

I shrugged it off as the greediness of a few clueless pro's...but now it seems to be a growing trend! Prodommes insisting that clients must bear presents (or risk rejection!), prodommes expecting that clients select items from their wish lists to prove their "sincere submission," and so forth.

Is it just me or is this a new and repulsive scam? My apologies in advance to any sincere prodommes out there who do ask for tributes but...isn't there something rather vile about people not only charging a hefty fee and THEN imposing extra fees by demanding gifts?

Imagine going to a fine restaurant where you're going to drop a wad of cash..and then finding out that unless you gift the maitre d' with a crystal chandelier you won't get seated? Or visiting a physician and learning that unless you buy him a fish tank for his waiting room he won't treat you? Let's face it: prodommes provide a service for a fee. And a big fee at that.

Plus, it often seems like the women most likely to demand extra perks are really clueless not-really-domme-except-in-their-own-minds money-grubbers, motivated by the finances and not the thrills of SM. Yet the party line maintained even by these women is that prodomme provide a "service" to the Community. As I see it, pro domination is a service when people charge a fair price for good service. Is asking for a new fur coat or computer fair? Reasonable? Moral??

But what bothers me the most is that desperate submissive men are so horribly vulnerable to such scams. They confuse vanilla exploitation with SM dominance and authority. They are willing to believe that any woman who presents as domme naturally has a right to demand presents.

Mind you, I don't have any problem with subs spending their money on dommes (HARDLY! <g!>). I have no problem with the concept of "tributes" in general. But I do have a problem when someone who's going to charge you anywhere from $150-$250/hour for a session also requires you spend an extra bundle just to serve her.

What do y'all think? Is this grand-scale scamming and preying upon our vulnerable subbie men? Or is it a question of "buyer beware," and a free-market BDSM environment where anything goes?

Glory

Glory,

You write <<Mind you, I don't have any problem with subs spending their money on dommes (HARDLY! <g!>). I have no problem with the concept of "tributes" in general. But I do have a problem when someone who's going to charge you anywhere from $150-$250/hour for a session also requires you spend an extra bundle just to serve her.>>

Couldn't have said it better myself. I've worked as a domme (never used the term prodomme to describe myself -- was always continuing to learn and explore). The majority of men I saw were middle aged, generally in a position where they were not able to be honest with their spouses, if they were married, and desperate for any situation in which to live out their fantasies, and they were willing to pay a fair price to do so. For a domme to demand more than that fair price seems unethical, in my opinion. Certainly there are guidelines for tipping, should a client so choose, and a domme also has the right to see whoever she pleases. To demand this extra tribute sets up an extra, artificial power-play, and doesn't sit well with me.

Also -- given my gross generalization about those who seek professional S/M services, there's also another consideration -- not one necessarily considered a domme's concern, but something that is bothersome to me from an ethical context. Given the fact that there are so many people, particularly men, seeking professional S/M because they feel they can't or would rather not seek it from their spouse, is it necessarily fair to demand so much from them -- above and beyond a fair price for services provided?

I'm on a soap box, I know -- I just think it's a rotten practice, one that really does detract from the legitimacy of professional S/M services, what little it has managed to gain itself over time.

Raven

Gloria,

I must say, I totally agree with you on this.
I've seen or heard, "so-called" Pro Dommes in chat rooms or received email from submissives regarding such.

To pay a ProDomme her Tribute is one thing.
But when a Domme demands "gifts", such as a car, a house a computer, or anything for that matter, it is taking advantage of the submissive. And in my eyes, it's wrong.

I feel if a submissive, sessions with a Domme on a regular basis and "wants" to buy her a gift, take her to dinner or whatever, I can see. But for her to have a Wish List, such as you mentioned is Not reasonable nor fair to the submissive. They are being used, is the bottom line. No, they're being fucked over.

I know one online, that would have submissives buy her expensive ass shoes, clothes and send them to her WITH the receipts. If the gifts were good enough, she kept them and end of "session". If they weren't good enough, she took the items back and got refunds. Afterall, she had the receipt.

I had someone call me, wanting to open a Credit Card account for me. I refused it.
I said, "if you'd like to send a card to me, send it through the office" But all you owe me is this amount of money for this amount of time and nothing more. AND if the time is set for an hour and they have to go in 45 minutes, I submit a 45 minute charge.

I even turned a call down one day because from what I was told by the caller, he couldn't afford the service. It would have created a finicial hardship on him.
And this is phone/not real time.
To me, right is right and wrong is just wrong.

Steel.

sounds like prostitution to me - not good or bad when in right context, but a friggin house? boy I am in wrong side of the D/s spectrum if thats the norm! <sittin in my quaint 1000 sq foot apartment near the beach>

Raven and Steel...I hear ya! It's really rough for ethical prodommes when their "sisters" in the field poison the well by exploiting men. Sad but true, men, and especially sub men, are easy prey. And sadder but equally true, there seems to be no lack of women ready to exploit them. But I ask...is this really dominance? Does it have anything to do with what we mean when we use the word "dominant"? Indeed, what really does money have to do with dominance? It's one thing for a loving subbie to lavish gifts on a domme but to be forced to do it out of horniness? Sad, sad, sad.

I know part of the reason I have strong feelings about this is because some of the victims occasionally end up in my practice. After being drained of sums of money by women I consider to be more predatory than dominant, the men wonder why they still don't feel they've ever had a satisfying SM experience. DUH.

(Ok, I don't say DUH when I'm counseling someone...that would be so...untherapeutic <g>)

Here's something else to consider...how dominant is a femdom if she depends on men to provide everything? Isn't she just like the gold-digging vanilla woman who sees a man in terms of his money? I know if sub men could stand back and see them for what they are, they'd realize they're being rooked. Unfortunately, the women wear all the right fetish clothes, and parrot all the right femdom cliches and their dicks get hard. Usually a hard dick goes along with a mushy brain (sorry, gents, and of course you maledoms are excluded...most of the time <eg>)

But seriously...I've worked since I was 14 (and babysat before that). I've never depended on any man for money. When I've lived with guys, or been married to 'em (Will's hubby #3), I've always contributed my fair share to expenses and in a couple of cases was the main provider. I'm not saying I wouldn't be a happy little Mistress if a billionaire sub showed up on my doorstep one day and made it possible for me never to have to work for a living again (YUMMY UMMY! <g>). But...it just gives me a severe case of cognitive dissonance when I see femdoms who really and truly are completely financially dependent on men. And, as I see it, this tribute scam, and wish-list nonsense, is just another variation on the vanilla gold-digging theme.

signed, your local friendly rabble-rouser....<g>

Glory

p.s. Kate....it'd make a whole lot more sense to me if subbie women were the ones demanding "take care of me! gimme gimme gimme, daddy!" We all know how GREEDY you are :-D

Darlin Glory - Greedy? gosh I wish - I surely do not turn down M's trinkets, but I surely give more then I can handle - i.e. just returned from an evening with him (11am my time) and feel like a fucking rubber band - and its my own damn fault...gimmie gimmie gimmie just one more orgasm! LOL

Gloria,

As you are aware of my work...
I get people that simply want to jerk off. Simetimes I answer my phone and they are about to cum. I hang up <g>

Most of what I get are people new to Ds...asking questions about different "techniques", "slang", and people simply wanting to know its OK to have the feelings and desires they have.

Some talk about being abused.. as a child and even as an adult.
It can be very sad.

I feel, what I do...there are set amounts and if I wanted to I could suck money out of some callers, left and right.
But that just isn't me. I do what I can to make the call even cheaper for them. Fuckin money doesn't grow on trees.

There are times people call, such as me.. due to being ashamed of being "seen" going to see a therapist, or whatever.. and there have been calls people HAVE been to a therapist and was told the desires they had were "not normal"...which is a crock of shit. Not normal to one isn't always not normal to someone else.

I feel the "Pro's" can conduct their business in a proper way or they can be assholes that simply use people for what they can get out of them. Just as the Vanilla woman who will marry someone because of what he HAS. That's a crock of shit.

Steel

Glory,

Wait a minute, a prodomme can actually get money
AND a tribute? Um, does this apply to male dom's
as well? Just, er, curious.

Nightheron

Night,

Thinking of changing professions?

xx,

Glory

Glory,

Not changing professions at the moment, but one always likes to keep the door open.

Still, I'm surprised no one has figured out the obvious reason (aside from greed) why prodommes want gifts as tributes: they don't have to declare them on their taxes.

Nightheron

Har. How much of her actual income do you think the average cash-collecting dominatrix declares, anyway. No one regulates them, and ones who work for themselves handle all their own books. (Those who work for houses only get a cut of what clients are charged; and pro houses tend to charge less than indies.)

Basically, I think there are a number of pro's out there (again, my apologies to those of you who're making an honest living at it) who are the female equivalents of the wannabes who say they're dominant because they think this means easy blow jobs from girls who can't say no.

One of my closest girlfriends worked as a pro for about 10 years. She was totally for real. But I've met way too many pro's who were about as dominant as my toy poodle. I see these ladies as con artists who've picked up on an easy way to make money, i.e., by taking advantage of all the very vulnerable, desperate malesubs out there.

And speaking of career moves...did you mention in another thread that you used to write smut for SM magazines in your sordid past? Would I have read your stuff? Would I have dreamt about it....? :-)

Glory

Glory,

Don't know if you would have read it or not. Most of the things I wrote were done quickly. I aproached them as writing exercises. Some appeared in "Bitches With Whips" magazine and many other publications under a dozen pen names. To be honest, little of it was all that good, but you know how it is: have to turn out a lot of material just to figure out what you're doing.

I'll send along some of my more recent stuff this month. I've written a lot of femdomme stories. There always has seemed to be a steady market for it. I started writing femdomme stories because (at least back in the 'eighties) it seemed like the iron hand of censorship could come down at any minute. I always figured that if I ended up in court I could claim: "but your honor, in my stories, the women sexually exploit the men. How could this be promoting crimes against women?" (This was back when a lot of people were promoting the idea that all erotica was a form of rape.)

Nightheron

Gloria,
Do you feel what I do is wrong?

Are you kidding? NO NO and NO! :-)

I feel women who aren't into SM but who see domination as a good way to drain men of money are the ones we need to get rid of. Then people like you could pursue the profession with more dignity, and without being tainted by those who use the job just to exploit the desperate.

Didn't you notice my caveat: "again, my apologies to those of you who're making an honest living at it" ? :-)

xx,

Glory

Ops, It went un-private

And yes Ma'am, I DID see
<< "again, my apologies to those of you who're making an honest living at it" >>

But I wanted your thoughts. I didn't know if you felt what I do IS an honest living at it.
Many wouldn't. So many see it as THEY want to see it.
I was with a woman online, we did go RT a few years ago, who "found out" and had some remarks to make to me about it, as if SHE would have any right to say anything about ANYTHING I do..especially when she's FAR from, caring about feelings of others...

It made me so proud because I was telling MsSharon what was said and MsSharon was all OVER the other person. She stood up for me and what I do although it isn't what she does.
She helps people in one way - I help them in others.
But I was so proud she went to my defense.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with SM women working as professional dominants or professional submissives, for that matter. I respect a handful who have proven themselves to be not only sincere and serious, but really devoted to education and activism.

I resent vanilla women who think all it takes is good clothes, good equipment, and a desire to exploit men.

Compounding the problem is that malesubs confuse victimizers with femdoms. They can't separate between their fantasies (often based on really bad porn) and SM reality.

It muddies the waters for ALL femdoms, IMO, profl. and non-profl., and often creates a lot of very confused malesubs.

Imagine if the shoe were on the other (gender's) foot. Imagine a world where men could make a living at dominating desperately frustrated femsubs. Imagine if for every sincere dominant man, there was someone who was doing it because he knew that all he had to do to make money (and often damn good money) was to wear leather, act arrogant, and beat his clients.

Sexism is a two-edged sword. As a het femdom, I think malesubs are the most discriminated-against, most-often-abused component of our Community. But no one talks about it...because men are supposed to shut up when they get hurt. Plus as you know, from doing it pro, the guys most likely to come to a pro are already hiding their secrets, so there's practically no chance they will ever reveal even terrible experiences to anyone. Who could they tell, after all? Many of them assume that others don't even care.

You are an SM woman. You do this in your private life. It may not turn you on to do it with men, since you're lesbian, but you understand the feelings, the needs, the depth, the desperation, and you understand it from the inside.

What do you imagine a vanilla woman, who sees sub men as nothing more than easy prey, feels or understands about the complicated emotions of sexual dominance and submission?

In my view: NADA.

<< What do you imagine a vanilla woman, who sees sub men as nothing more than easy prey, feels or understands about the complicated emotions of sexual dominance and submission? >>

They see them as "weak" and very "useable" on TOP of not understanding the desires the person has so deep within himself and will never be able to share with "the vanilla woman"

Gloria,
       If a pro were demanding a tribute in addition to their fee, then i would have to suggest that perhaps that they take a flying fornici at rolling pastry. However, since pro dom's are sex workers and since there are some out there who make their living at it, and honestly take hits in their personal income to serve the community as a whole with education, techniques etc, it should also be stated, that in an awful lot of places to list a FEE on a web site could very well get you charged with prostitution and pandering. Thus the word TRIBUTE....it is not against the law to give someone a gift. I only personally know three pro's who I would recommend to anyone. And all three of those are very active in the community around Atlanta and across other parts of the nation. I also do not think that the 3 I speak of do phone 'domination'....1-900-WEENIE-WACK would do just as well. For those less than honorable "pro" doms that are simply setting a snare for the unsuspecting and hapless males, they in my ever so humble opinion, should be taken out in the yard and shot with the bullets being tributes provided by those screwed without the courtesy of a lube or reach around.

Justin

Justin,

<< since pro dom's are sex workers >>

All Pro's are not "sex workers"
"Domination"/Ds/BDSM/Submission and all of the terms used... doesn't always involve "sex"

Steel

Ok Steel.....I agree with that....now, then let me re-phrase.....are VIEWED by the majority of ppl that know about them, seek them out or seek to prosecute them as sex workers. My deepest apologies.

Justin

im slightly confused here *sm*....

it has been suggested to me many times that i should become a prodomme, and experience and training aside, i dont understand why they say this. i am often mistaken for Domme because of the way i dress and indeed, there are several subbie males who are dreaming of the day i switch. i wont, im sub to the core and have been all my life. i simply dont get any pleasure out of dominating another.

My (limited)understanding of professional domination is that it does not include intercourse or oral play, generally, and is used to impart a feeling of domination. i have also heard that many prodommes are actually submissive women, because of their abiltity to relate to the submissive experience. Since professional domination is a *job*, and not a love/life experience where the true powerexchange is the key element, can a sub be a prodomme?

Hey, lace! Haven't seen your smiling pixels in a while. All okay?

RE profl. domination...and "can a sub be a prodomme?"

Alas, ANYONE can be a prodomme. It doesn't require that much energy to sustain the illusion of dominance for an hour or a few hours at a time; it's a whole 'nother thing to live it as a reality. Also, I don't believe that the reason many prodommes are actually subs is because they relate better. I think they are prodommes because it pays better than many other jobs. ;-)

Glory

Lace,

I've seen Submissive Pro's ;)

As a sub who has worked as a domme, my thought on why a sub would do this is because working as a prodomme pays better, and as a female, it feels safer. It's easier to interview potential clients and to work in a pro setting as a domme than as a sub. I only subbed with clients that I knew explicitly to be safe.

There are times I truly enjoy being a domme (though I find I have more of them when topping in my current relationship, possibly because it fits within a context of overall belonging to my Master as his submissive). When I worked, I could very much get into dom-space in the way that I had previously experienced only sub space, and in that respect, it taught me much about myself, as well as about the dynamics of S/M.

When I describe myself sexually in terms of my S/M desires, I use the word sub, even though, in all technicality, I'm a switch, I suppose. When the timing is right, I really do get off on topping. It's intriguing, actually -- C. notices that I get an extra edge to my voice (he calls it that velvet edge...*sigh*) and I can hear it in my own voice -- and I don't know if it's biochemical or what, but it's certainly something that I can't fake or force. If it's not there, it's just not.

At the same time -- even though I did work as both a prodomme and a pro sub, I never really got into my work in that sense. Interestingly enough, I probably really got into being a prodomme much more than being a sub, even though what turns me on personally more is subbing. In a professional context, it was more like preserving that part of myself that wasn't up for others to see. Certainly I could be submissive to a certain extent, but it just never resonated with me in the same way that it does in a personal context. (Okay, the one exception is that spanking in just about any context, pro or personal, just turns me on, and there's just no hiding that physiological reaction. <ggg>)

I think that it's easier for a prodomme to draw that line than for a professional sub to do so, just given the power dynamics scattered in with the financial dynamics.

I'm really looking forward to this thread continuing! :) I only worked for a short time and haven't really thought much about it for a while...it's nice to kind of process those experiences again.

Raven

last newbie question of the day:
i live in the bible belt.

this is beyond fascinating to me, but
is this legal?

ever the naive,
eclypse

eclypse,

I don't know everything about the legal part of it (heck, I don't know everything there is to know about any part of it; what I know about pro S/M is only that -- my own experience, nothing else). However, my understanding from chatting with a friend of mine who works as a cop is that it's something that falls under each locale's vice laws; i.e., differs from city to city, even within a state. From my understanding, there are relatively few areas with laws specifically regarding S/M activities; i.e., I think it's perfectly legal to pay someone to beat you. I understand that sometimes the main charge that comes from this type of pro S/M activity is massage without a license. Go figure. ;) However, when the S/M includes things such as penetration (digital, with dildo, etc.), it gets a bit murkier.

Then again, my experience is with a large city on the West Coast. I'd imagine that it'd be a whole different ballgame in the Bible Belt.

Does this help at all or just create more questions? ;)

Raven

hehe
definitely more questions.

i'm getting involved with a local group here. perhaps i will find out a little more about specific local things... such as availability <g>

thanks for answering,
eclypse

i remain confused about tributes. are tributes another kind of fee? is it usual for a lifestyle domme to charge clients and then exact tribute from slaves? And what sort of tribute? how much? should tribute be commensurate with the fee? hopefully dr. brame can help clear this up. thanks very much.jacques

Jacques,

A Pro will have a set amount she charges, which is also known as her tribute or fee.
The amount can range from $225.00 - $250.00 and higher. (Per hour)

IMHO... That should be all owed to the Dominant... other tributes should not be demanded or even "expected."

If a submissive/slave just *wants* to buy a gift or whatever, it should simply be because the submissive want to, not because it's required.

Steel

Jacques,

If you are okay with paying extra for the privilege of serving this prodomme (something I generally feel queasy about but which I know some malesubs actually enjoy)....then, first, yes, she's expecting a gift. It's not an invitation to barter. Since she didn't specify what kind of gift, I guess she leaves it up to subs to set the limit on what they'll spend to impress her.

You're sure you want to do this?

Gloria

I happened across this ProDomme profile and naturally, I just had to look at her website:

Btw, she uses PayPal :)
If she was diving a Lexus or BMW, I would have taken out a loan :x
--------------------------------------------------------

Do you long to serve Me in some small way? Are you unable to come see Me personally? Will it assuage your need for submission to worship and serve Me from afar?

Here are some things you can do to make My life easier. Regardless of what form your tribute to Me takes, you will have the honor of knowing you have served My pleasure. Check back frequently to see if My needs have changed.

Pay for My salon visits. I may even reward you with pictures of My new haircuts and pedicures.

Pay for My health club membership. I love to swim!

Pay for My truck. While some people may enjoy a sleek Lexus or BMW, I drive a pick-up truck... blue, of course!

Pay My mortgage. I just bought a new house with some PERFECT dungeon space. Slaves who help pay the mortgage may be rewarded with special pictures of Myself and the dungeon.

Can't decide? Just want to send some token of your appreciation for My person?

Dear Steel--Thank you very much. That info brought me back to earth with a thud.jacques

Jacques,

Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate the Pro's that are "sincere". I just don't appreciate the Pro's that fuck people over.

There was something in my mail, I'll show you. I'll send it separate in case it has to be a "private" thing.

Steel

Lament of a Dominatrix
   
I am so very bored with forever taking charge;
Always on top, always in control, always the driver.

How many times can I command them to lick my boot
 and still have it mean something?

How can I continue to be the cold evasive bitch while
 maintaining the euphoria of a novice?

Bend over before me -- as you will it Mistress
Spread your legs and prepare -- as you will it Mistress
Worship me as your Goddess -- as you will it Mistress
Bla, bla, bla
It's all lost its rosy glow for me.

I remember when I would become breathless by just the thought
 of a whip in my hand.

My heart would beat faster at the mention of nipple clamps and restraints.

God, I think back to the time when I would actually
Squeal with glee at the feel of rubber and vinyl
Smeared with what ever lubricant happened to be at hand
Which I would then ...
Ah, but I digress.

You see, now it's just routine.

Granted, I am good at what I do
And my slaves always come for more.

My technique is well known.

It's a varied pattern of
Hard, hard
Soft, soft
As you will it Mistress.

Hard, soft, hard, soft, hard, hard, hard, soft.
As you will it Mistress.

I always leave welts, but
I never break the skin.

That way they can go back to whatever it is they have to do
Without being discovered for what they need to do.
For who they really are,
My servants, my slaves.

Yes, they still beg to do my bidding.
In fact I commanded a few of them to paint my house interior
In nothing but G-strings and collars,
While my colleagues and I drank wine and watched.

Some of them had to be punished if a mistake was made,
But the power, the thrill is gone.

It's just another job.

Lately, though, I've been wondering,
What's it like on the other side?

I have been curious to feel the other side of a cat.
I might just like being bound and blindfolded.

I mean, don't I deserve to be in pain every once in a while?

Can't I be the naughty one every now and then?
Don't I have the right to be punished?

But then I wonder

Who would dare to be my master?
Are you up for the challenge?