SAFE ---- SANE ---- CONSENSUAL

I have been giving some thought to this for a while and although this is going to sound really really dumb ,,,, I have to ask anyway.

When these words are used in the BDSM world ..... are they solely used with regard to scening ... or do they apply to the other areas as well ...... meaning to a poly relationship ...... a TPE ...... a D/s relationship in the everyday kind of things.

I guess that I am having a mental block here and it is probably because my marriage was and was not SANE .... SAFE ---- or CONSENSUAL ... If that makes any sense what so ever.

I have come to see that one of my greatest obstacles is the definition barrier. I seem to think that I know what someone means when they say certain things and sure enough my definition is different then theirs.

It is not just that I see a word differently it is also that I seem to see the actions and reactions that the words should provoke or evoke differently.

It seems that I still have a lot of mixed up understandings swimming around in this brain of mine that what things meant in past experiences get all tangled up in now.

Safe ....... when I think about that word I think emotional safety because physical safety is really not a concern to me. What I mean is that throughout my life the physical part of it has left me unafraid of anything that could ever be done to me. Weird I know but that is how it is. Now the emotional safety is something that paramount to me because I do not know what that is like but I know that I need it.

Sane - I have come to see that sane is a matter of perception. What is sane to one is not sane to another ... or at least that is how it is with me. Again I guess that has a lot to do with my life's experiences.

Consensual - ????? and I am not sure why the question marks. There is much in my life that has been beyond my control so did I consent to it or did I just give in to it.

Yea I know ...... confusion is high at the moment and I do not know why.

This board has such great insight and everyone is always so willing share their thoughts sooooooooo

Please share .... I am in need of that right now

Storm

From: Thorn4MyRose
To: Storm

Hmm. All these great questions to ponder before I've even finished one cup of coffee. I don't know how much help I might be, but here's the ole college try:

First and foremost, regarding your comment << although this is going to sound really really dumb ,,,, I have to ask anyway. >>, I didn't see a single thing in your posting that sounded 'dumb' at all. However, IF you feel your questions are foolish, then consider this: Ask a foolish question, and you're a fool for a moment. DON'T ask it, and you're a fool forever. Enough said? <g>

Ok...onto my opinions. Sure, I think that as with most things in the BDSM Scene, how 'safe, sane and consenting' (SSC) are applied is ultimately something that's unique to the specific people involved. You can easily make the case that each word is unambiguous and should therefore have universal application in every aspect of a BDSM relationship, but I have yet to see any two BDSM relationships that are completely identical regardless of any similarities.

Perhaps the more empowering way to look at this is from the back end (yeah, I can hear the jokes about how dominants just love to look at back ends <g>). In whatever type of relationship YOU eventually wish to get into, what elements do YOU think SSC should apply to? In other words, instead of trying to find out how everyone applies these things, maybe it would be more productive to just develop some simple, basic ideas of the degree of control you wish to give up and how you think SSC would therefore apply. I think if you do that, you'll quickly find that the definitions of SSC that YOU would need to use in order to make giving up that degree of control possible will fall right into place.

I would, however, like to share one item related to your comment about 'consent vs. giving into something'. This will probably be a very confusing (and possibly controversial) comment, so everyone's forewarned. lol.

The REASON anyone chooses to do anything is actually MORE important than the consent involved. It's extremely interesting to me that most people skip right past the conscious reasoning process though and go right for the juicy rationalizations. They rarely see (or admit to themselves) that they ARE indeed making their own choice. More often, they feel they DON'T have any choice and HAVE to go along with whatever the issue is. I'm certainly not saying that life choices are easy by any means, but they ARE still choices. And in BDSM especially, choices not to do something should always be respected. Yes, that respect may come back in the form of, "If you don't wish to do it, then you must leave," but that should never be viewed as a coercive measure in and of itself. It's a statement that clearly respects the premise of consent, though many view that sort of thing as manipulative. When someone DECIDES, however, that they wish to stay -- and therefore agrees to [whatever] -- then they've given consent to it (pure and simple). The person responsible is the one that consented to it. (Just remember, the 'check and balance' to all of that is that they can withdraw the consent at any time. That's what keeps it from being 'abuse'.)

Now to finish my coffee. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

Thorn .......

LOL, now I understand. It is my not yet refined ESP at work <g>

"""""They rarely see (or admit to themselves) that they ARE indeed making their own choice. More often, they feel they DON'T have any choice and HAVE to go along with whatever the issue is. I'm certainly not saying that life choices are easy by any means, but they ARE still choices""""""

I could not pass this one up. In theory I do agree with you ...... although in actuality I beg to differ a bit.

As I am right this moment ...... I am indeed making my own choices and technically I have made my own choices all of my life.

I would take except though with the following comment

"""""they feel they DON'T have any choice and HAVE to go along with whatever the issue is."""""

and in addition to issue I will add direction, request and the like.

There was a movie out a while ago that starred Kurt Russell. I can not remember the name but it was a Sci-Fi flick about brain-washing children at an early age so that they would be compliant and total soldiers of war. A more advanced ..... revived from the dead soldier was created to take their place ... being stronger ..... having more endurance ..... and without many of the human needs.

The point is that in the formable years of a child's life and with constant reinforcement ...... the lack of control over one's person as well as a sense of helplessness where the right to free choice is concerned can become as much a part of a person as breathing.

If a fear of reprisal is constant in a child they soon move from carefree to survival mode and if the conditioning is consistent ...... although reality and theory say they have "free choice" they do not know that.

There does come a time when as they get older that they will begin to question that lack of choice ...... and depending on the severity of the reinforcement will sooner or later challenge that concept in a variety of ways.

I do not have training in this area but I do have some strong feelings and thoughts.

I guess where it can get confusing is when a person is in the survival mode so to speak. That is when surviving ...... as they understand surviving to be .... is the primary goal. Choices are made, but they are not made taking more then "how to get through this moment" into consideration.

The skill of choice making in one that is learned and refined through the years.

I have done some unbelievable things ... many of which I am ashamed of. I can accept that I made a choice ... even if the choice was made by my not being able to make a choice. For most of my life my decision making has been on auto pilot ....... my need to survive taking over and my primitive responses kicking into gear.

Somewhere along the road to where I am now, I learned good decision making where it pertained to others ... but when it pertained to me ....... I was still in the "DO as you are told mode" or else.

The or else has always been the withholding of love .. affection ... care and concern.

It is a proven fact that preemie babies fair far worse when they are left alone with no human contact or feeling of love and acceptance. As a matter of fact many died for that simple reason.

Emotional starvation can be as devastating as physical starvation ... with the biggest difference being that physical starvation results in physical death ..... emotional starvation results in physical life but emotional death of sorts.

In the throws of impending emotional death ...... choices take on a very different meaning. Choices are made according to the praise and punishment standard and for many that is “having no choice” at all or to put it another way ....... doing what is needed to forestall the eventual emotional death that overshadows all else.

For those who never learn or internalize any different way of thinking ......... life goes on as it always has . For those who are fortunate enough to “somehow” learn a different set of thought and behavior patterns their life and their FREEDOM OF CHOICE become a reality to them.

As I said .... I am not well school in this or other developmental theories but .......... it has been my life.

Storm

From: Thorn4MyRose
To: Storm

Well, as I said, I didn't think those comments would go without provoking some degree of thought. <eg>

It doesn't matter if you're 'well schooled' in it or not, my friend. It doesn't even matter if the rest of the universe agrees with you. What matters is what you believe will better your quality of living. In that regard, use what's productive for you and disregard the rest. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

midear Storm,

I like almost everyone else, say that what we do is Safe, Sane, and Consentual.

But is it?

Safe?
Well, most of the injuries I have encounted in the scene were mishaps- as I think of it, most of the more serious injuries involved the _dominant_ getting injured (the worst being a friend whose hand got caught in a bondage table, and very nearly lost a finger).
But I can *not* say that what we do is safe. The bonds we forge in the heat of our moments warp our perceptions of life, alter us in strange ways. The hearts that are broken, the trusts betrayed, the wreckage of lives ground under the engines of obsession- these are real losses, and too common, it seems, to say 'Safe'.

Sane?
oh come on. While the desires, and the drives are no longer considered 'illnesses' by the DSM, any behavior that threatens ones well being is not. Know anyone in the scene with kids? If someone outs them, what happens? I suspect the results would impact their well being pretty dramaticlly. Try telling your neighbor what it is that you really like, and see if they let your kids play with theirs. If community standards are considered sane, where are we?

Consent?
Legally there is no such thing. I can not consent to a flogging, anymore than I can to a gunshot wound. And I concede the laws point on this- prior consent is thin ice after someones been bound and beaten for an hour. Frankly, If I did it right, at that point, she'll agree when I suggest that for my next trick I should cut her nipple off with a blunt saw. Where is 'Consent'? Is that 'Sanity'? Is it 'Safe' to go to that place, ever, with anyone?

    I think that SS&C is a good thing to tell the vanilla world about when they don't understand, and I'll sure be screaming it the loudest when the cops come in the door, but I think it's really just a soundbyte for the masses, not reality.

stay warm,
Lawrence

Lawrence

"I think that SS&C is a good thing to tell the vanilla world about when they don't understand, and I'll sure be screaming it the loudest when the cops come in the door, but I think it's really just a soundbyte for the masses, not reality."

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Couldn't have phrased it better myself!

Craig

Craig! I miss you !!!

I was just thinking of something that happened recently - was in swing when it wasn't over the bed attached to the center high wood beam ceiling, it was attached to the crossbar beam near the window to uh sort of teach me to not dress in front of the window facing the neighbor - well anyway, he decided to turn me a few times around and around, and I was laughing and having wayyyy too much fun - ended up spinning the damn hook right out of ceiling - and landed on my tail bone - safe? hell no - the hook is back over the bed so that the water bed mattress is a good cushion if that ever happens again.

First I would like to RE-Bingo what Craig Bingoed. SSC is one of the few "standards" that still survive in the lifestyle or Community. To an extent thats great, but as pointed out already here, SSC like most everything else is applied to the individuals involved. So I guess the lady that had planned her own murder in nc awhile back considered it sane and consensual...and hell safety was not a consideration....I use am extreme example to illustrate that to simply say, "apply it whatever way you want" is not always such a good thing. SSC is ambiguous, so heres my take on it.

Safe: all resonable precautions have been taken to minimize the risk of permanent HARM. I set out to hurt someone everytime I play. Safe to me does not mean that no mistakes will be made.

Sane: that all parties involved are involved for their mutual pleasure and betterment. Saying no drugs or no alcohol or that a person is of sound mind with no mental defects doesn't really cut it.....plenty of ppl are sane so long as they are on their maintance medication.

Consensual: all parties involved have given consent to what is going to take place BEFORE it takes place and while they are not under duress, which includes being sexually excited, drunk, high, or in subspace, as well as not being asked for consent at say gun point. Duress, physically and mentally. Consent is the only one that is up for the least debate. Yes, you can NOT consent to a flogging, but damn if someone steps outa the blue and smacks you with one on a street corner or in a play space that is assault. In my opinion.

Does SSC apply to *everything* that we do? Most I suppose, for most people, but surely not everything all the time. While I fully believe in the THEORY of SSC, it has become, again in MY OPINION, sanitized. It is a sound bite. Its the secret pass phrase "I'm SSC" "oh well come on in". Its sanitized.

Justin

I got this off a mailing list I'm on. I don't know if it's true and even if it is true, I don't know whether it's still relevant in this day and age :)

The original definition regarding SSC came out of the GMSMA (Gay Male S/M Activists) committee meeting planning strategy for the 1987 March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights. Later, in 1988 at the Leather Leadership Conference, it was rehashed to be presented to the vanilla community. The definitions are:

Safe is being knowledgeable about the techniques and safety concerns involved in what you are doing, and acting in accordance with that knowledge.

Sane is knowing the difference between fantasy and reality, and acting in accordance with that knowledge.

Consensual is respecting the 'limits' imposed by each participant at all times. One of the recognized ways to maintain limits is through a "safeword" which ensures that each participant can end his/her participation with a word or gesture.

If you haven't already read this, Laura Antoniou expresses some interesting thoughts on SSC in this lecture transcript:

http://www.sexuality.org/latrans.html

Deborah