Hi, folks!

Yes, it's time for another one of our nosy little polls here at gloria-brame Interactive :-)

This new one is called "HOW WE GOT HERE AND WHY WE STAY." It asks questions about how you identify, what drew you to the world of BDSM/fetishes, whether you view BDSM/fetishes as a sexual passion, and what you get out of being involved with both the BDSM or fetish activities themselves and the BDSM "Scene" as a community.

I've also added a space for comments or essays which begin "I do BDSM/fetish stuff because...." so we can get more personal feedback from poll-takers on the attractions and rewards of being consciously kinky.

TAKE THE POLL NOW
http://gloria-brame.master.com/texis/master/search/+/form/BDSM%3A%20%20How%20We%20Got%20Here%20and%20Why%20We%20Stay.html

I think this poll will yield some fascinating results! As usual, I will update you in the weeks to come and plan to publish the final results here sometime in October, depending on how many replies flow in. You can also check on the data as it comes in by looking for the "See Current Poll Results" link at the top of every page here.

Meanwhile, I hope you'll feel free to discuss the questions in this thread, along with observations you've made about sex and BDSM, defining lifestyle v. D/s and other of the questions that appear in the poll. Any quibbles over questions/answer choices are welcome :-)

best,

Gloria

I just peeked in at some of the incoming data. Right now, the most striking thing I've noticed is this one (below) on whether BDSM/fetish activity is erotic for you. I've seen so much discussion around the Net about people who don't find SM a sexual turn-around I was struck that only a very tiny 2% of people who've take our survey thus far say that BDSM is NOT sexual for them, whereas over two-thirds (68%) include sex with their play and another 8% say play is sexually hot even when there's no direct sex involved.

So what is it? Are people lying in public when they say they don't get a sexual charge from it, and telling us the truth in private? OR...are the people who visit gloria-brame just SEXIER than the rest of the BDSM community? ;-)

Data follow:

****************
3) Are/were those encounters erotic for you?

Actual sex was involved and it turned me on sexually 68%
  
There was a sexual component but that wasn't what turned me on 16%
   
There was no direct sexual contact but it turned me on sexually 8%

Something else 4%
   
BDSM/fetish encounters aren't sexual for me 2%

<< Are people lying in public when they say they don't get a sexual charge from it, and telling us the truth in private? OR...are the people who visit gloria-brame just SEXIER than the rest of the BDSM community? ;-) >>

Glory,

I think the thing may be that the people online who say BDSM is not sexual for them are vocal about it. In the BDSM community, we often presuppose that BDSM is all about hard dicks and hard clits. Even in cases where there are nonsexual elements involved, like D/s situations... it's often a tacit assumption that the submissive gets hot during play, even if ze doesn't get hot ironing clothes.

When someone who doesn't see BDSM as sexual at all enters the discussion, ze's apt to explicitly say so -- because ze knows that, if ze doesn't, people will most likely assume that BDSM is sexual (on whatever level) to that person.

Whereas the rest of us (the majority, as per your poll, which makes sense), whose clits/dicks are in overdrive when we play, don't really need to say so, since most people are like that/assume everyone is like that anyway.

And that says nothing about the fascinating discussions about what things are sexual and what are not.

<< ...are the people who visit gloria-brame just SEXIER than the rest of the BDSM community? >>

Well, Gloria Brame is sexier than most of the rest of the BDSM Community, so maybe people who visit GB.com are just sexier by association. :)

*wipes off nose*

After taking a look at the poll, I wasn't quite sure... is it meant for people who don't do anything in RL & public? Don't want to skew the poll with data from closet-case couples like us if that's not its intention.

OmegaWolf,
<<…is it meant for people who don't do anything in RL & public? Don't want to skew the poll with data
 from closet-case couples like us if that's not its intention.>>
I sure HOPE it's for us closet-case couples (what a great description!) as we're as closeted as they come--and that poll is what convinced me to finally stop lurking (and thinking about what I'd say if…) and start thinking about saying it. ;-)
Jude

Hey, guys,

The poll is for *everyone* who's kinky, closeted or clubbing. But now that you mention it, I'm sorry I didn't ask about that issue (hmmm! I smell a new poll idea here), i.e., whether the people taking the poll were more private or public about their kinks. I pretty much assume that the vast majority of people reading these boards are *not* out and are not the more typicl (i.e., heavy club/party-going) BDSMers. But it would be interesting to do a poll on just that to learn more about the lurking population.

Glory

Gloria & All,

IMHO, a large number of these mystical people who say BDSM is not in any way sexual for them are either vanilla or completely out of touch with themsleves. Aside from a handful of people that we call sociopaths, BDSM is sexual, almost by definition.

On the next poll, be sure to ask about...

Degrees of publicness. Some of us are open in chat rooms, clubs, party events, with certain friends, S/O's, etc, but not at work or church, for example.

Ask about whether we express our kinks overtly or ambiguously, through behavior, club, street or business attire, body art, handcuffs hanging from the rear-view mirror, etc.

Ask if there are any reasons other than shame (self-consciousness, fear of ridicule, rejection, loss of business or job, etc.) for being discreet or closeted in certain settings.

Did anyone ever correctly identify you as a kinky person when you were trying to conceal it?

Have you ever worn a kinky costume --BDSM, opposite sex, vinyl/rubber, corset or other kinky getup-- at Halloween or other costume event? If so, what and where?

A related topic: How do you spot other BDSMers in public? Do you deliberately do or wear anything to identify yourself as a kinky person? When? (How about that "Redhead, 'nuff said," "Beyond BITCH," or "Bad boys get spanked" license plate frame?)

THESE ARE SUGGESTIONS FOR FUTURE POLL TOPICS AND SURVEY QUESTIONS! ** You don't have to answer them here. **

~M~

Mrphph! (and everyone else),

(Gee, I've made that sound, too!)

Why are we closeted? Let me count the whys:

1) I could lose my job. Permanently. Be banned from ever practicing it again. And dammit, I'm good at what I do, and have worked hard to get where I am.

2) My husband is -- well, when I said 98% vanilla he proved me wrong, but he thinks of what we do as play, not real. <big SIGH>

3) We are very active in our church community--and would lose that, too. Heck, my sister-in-law and her partner lost that because of coming out as gay, which here in NorCal is almost a "so-what? have fun!"

4) Conservative family would not be able to cope. Part of said family has not been able to cope with #3! And family is VERY important to both of us.

I could go on and on, but those are the biggies. Now -- has anyone ever pegged me as being kinky? Yup; a couple of very good friends.

This site is a lifesaver.

Jude

~M~,
    Not sure that you were aiming at my corn flakes, but you still managed to piss in them. To begin with while I agree that BDSM is sexual to a degree, its not entirely sexual to every person involved in it and believe me I am far from "mystical" and certainlt am far from being a sociopathic. Is sex part of it? Sure. Is it the biggest part for me? Not even freaking close. I was getting laid quite regularly BEFORE I got into this. And quite happily and most satisfactorily. Incidentally, what exactly is _the_ definition of BDSM? I must have missed that post, chat room or class.

I express my views through my dress, the single tail in my back pocket, which is with me most everywhere I go, the tattoo of the dragon on my arm holding the BDSM emblem, my leather pride lighter cover, about 256 different t-shirts, stickers on my car, helping run a group in Greenville, helping build a community statewide in South Carolina and by signing my given name to everything that I write or post. Do a google search on Justin Medlin and see what you come up with. I write my congressmen, I am out to my folks, friends, etc. I once beat the waitress that was waiting on a group of us in Asheville NC (at her request) and also did a violet wand demo in the honda body shop office here in greenville once as well.

Have I ever been identified as being kinky while trying to hide it? Nope. Have I ever been identified as kinky while not trying to hide it? Not in that anyone ever came up to me and said "your one of those perverts, aren't you?". I have been told by others in groups that they picked me out as a dominant when first seeing me, but I don't think that counts.

The last costume events that I went to I went in a shirt and tie as a nilla person and people were aghast.

Justin Medlin

Another reason why some people aren't 'out' is the risk of losing their children.

Perhaps some aren't out because they don't think it's anyone else's business.

More than likely, most people don't appreciate you making it their business either. We don't appreciate family values crowd going around announcing their orientation and attempting to shove it on us either. So why go there at all?

Just catching up here, but I don't think it's anyone else's business, either. If I ain't gettin naked with ya, you don't need to know! LOL

As far as everyday life, how "out" can ya be in "polite society"? Here, I envision Hubby tossing me over a restaurant table, removing His belt and going to town on my ass. *giggle*

Seriously, though, He got me an AWESOME birthday present ... the BDSM emblem on a leather choker. I wear it everywhere we go together. : ) That's really as visible as I need to be. I figure, He knows, and I know ... and that's good enough for me! Although, I must say, that restaurant idea is intriguing ... *eg*

My fantasies always involved submission in some way or another, often related to feminization, so it's natural that I found my way to BDSM. Although most of my activity is done in private, I've really enjoyed the limited public experiences I've had, like simply attending a halloween party in a frilly costume. If the costume suggests "I'm submissive", people will oblige you with simple dominance, like teasing, pinching your ass etc., which I love.

I'm more curious about this concept that folks feel they have to hide in order to preserve jobs, societal relationships, family relationships etc.

Yes, I know that in the real world folks are prejudiced, mean-spirited, petty and afraid of anything different - but

Who would want to work somewhere that they can't be themselves? Who would want to socialize with folks who can't accept them for who they are? Who would bother with family members who don't love THEM, not what they do and who they do it with?

I'm totally out, in the sense that if asked, I won't hide or lie. I've had plenty of people who've identified me as 'one of those perverts' - but I don't wear overt symbols or dress regularly. My co-workers know my sexual proclivities, my sibling does too, my folks suspect but have not asked and, given their past reactions to other similar situations, won't even blink were they to find out.

Is it that I value my freedom and right to be who I am more than most? Have I lucked out?

Somehow, I tend not to think so. Frankly, anyone who would want to give me trouble, of any kind, for what I profess to be into, I'm just not interested in having anything to do with. They've revealed themselves to be petty, shallow and mean and are not worht my time. Its not worth taking money from someone who's going to measure me based on sexuality and not on performance.

Can I get an AMEN! rabidchahuahua!!!

Justin Medlin

Mamneth,

Sorry about your cornflakes. My piss was basically aimed at that one percent or so (or the supposed 40 percent in some other survey) who say there is no sexual component whatsoever.

I confess I do not understand how or why anyone would practice BDSM (or D/s) other than for sexual stimulation. ... But that's just me. I view lifestylers as people who are sexual all the time.

If you say you aren't a sicko, I will take your word for it, but I was only pissing in your general direction.

"BDSM-- Bondage, Discipline, Sadism, Masochism." I think I remember seeing that somewhere around here. "Bondage" and "Discipline" were euphemisms that came into use in swingers' personal ads during the 1950s and -60s --to avoid censorship, ostracization and public outrage-- were clearly coined in a sexual context. ("BDSM" has predominantly had the same usage.) De Sade and Sacher-Masoch, from whose names we get other terms, both wrote of their practices in the context of their sexual relationships with women. Thus I say "sexual, almost by definition". It's been an adequate definition for me.

   ~Mrphph!~

"Who would want to work somewhere that they can't be themselves? Who would want to socialize with folks who can't accept them for who they are? Who would bother with family members who don't love THEM, not what they do and who they do it with?"

Okay, i'll take them in order. Work is (at least for me) completely separate from and independent of my personal intimate relationships. It's quite frankly not my employer's, my supervisor's, or my co-workers' business how i live my personal life. So while i don't "hide," i don't discuss it either. But i think it should be understood that not everyone has the option of choosing their working conditions. Someone who always wanted to be a nurse, for example, and achieved that dream, can very well be subject to losing his/her license. It's not just "folks" who can be prejudiced, mean-spirited, petty, and afraid of anything different; unfortunately, some institutions display those same qualities.

Socialize? Personally, i don't socialize much anyway. And when i do, i only socialize with people i choose to spend personal time with. It's one of the major reasons i have made some of the choices i have; i never wanted to spend my personal time with business or professional colleagues. i want to be with friends or family, period.

Family? All sorts of things come into play there. i'm not really close with most of my siblings, and simply don't talk to one of my sisters at all (ever since i was outed to her, as a matter of fact). My parents are another thing entirely. i am middle-aged; they are elderly. i was outed to them several years ago and they handled it like we all wish our loved ones would. However, i do not *ever* say or do anything to remind them of my lifestyle. It would upset my mother and worry my father, and why would i do that? So i can say to the world, "i don't hide; take me as i am or don't take me at all?" That would be just plain insensitive and selfish, and i don't do it. But they don't ask either, because they know that i will tell the truth, even if it's not something they want to hear.

i can, have, and will take all sorts of flak for whatever it is about me that might draw people's disapproval, ire, or even hatred. But i will not inflict myself (most especially my private life) on people who are busy minding their own business. It's the same thing that causes me to use headphones when listening to my music when someone else is in the room (not many people share my taste in music), or to not use foul language indiscriminately in public. Call it "hiding," call it "not being oneself," or call it simple courtesy and respect for others.

Peace
firebaby

Mrphph...

<<I view lifestylers as people who are sexual all the time. >>

That is one of the best definitions for it that I've heard in a long time.

"Who would want to work somewhere that they can't be themselves?" Rabid, I would. I'm a teacher, and a damn good one. I work in a public school system with low income second language learners and enable people who enter my class 2 to 6 grades below grade level (no, I am not exaggerating) in reading and writing to succeed in learning to read and write. They gain a minimum of 2 years growth, as rated by those o-so-important tests; I've had students gain 5 years or more. What does that mean? Kids who, by all indications, would quit school after 9th grade because they just couldn't understand what they were supposed to read, go to college. They invite me to their graduations--and I go. Am I going to throw that away? Hell no. Does that mean I can't be open about what my husband and I do in the privacy of our bedroom? Absolutely. And it's worth it.

Jude

Wow i must be in the tiny minority when it comes to sex being part of SM. It really isn't sexual for me most of the time. i don't feel turned on every minute of every day. It feels.......hmmmm.. just oh, indescribable. Better than sex, if you can imagine that.

There are times when it can be sexual--very sexual. And for me, good sex doesn't happen without some BDSM component.

But, i won't say that good BDSM doesn't happen without sex for me. My life just isn't one huge turn on all the time and i can't imagine being perpetually turned on while i'm out and about pulling the weeds and scrubbing the toilets.

It's something else during those times, something else, not as fleeting as sex, maybe not as intense--but better, deeper--like sinking into a huge feather bed in making things right for my Owner or doing something She tells me to do, submitting to Her, knowing She owns me. It's there always even if i'm not turned on. Yes. Even when i'm cleaning the toilets.

"Hi, I'm Deb! (sunny Doris Day grin and friendly handshake) I'm dom!"

Why I don't talk:

1) To the listener it doesn't even matter what I like to do
2) Talking could directly hurt my young son's interests or compromise my vanilla husband's right to privacy
3) Listener has a big mouth and could indirectly hurt my son's interests or compromise my vanilla husband's right to privacy

My husband's right to privacy doesn't need too much explanation.

As for my son, in a small provincial town of six thousand people it's easy to imagine ostracism scenarios: the parents of my son's friends' decide it's better that our kids don't spend so much time together, kids don't come over, my son isn't invited to play at their houses, no sleep-overs, birthday parties, etc.

Soooo.....I'm discreet.

My criteria for talking?

Needs To Know
-or-
I Need To Tell

There really aren't that many people who fall under these categories but when they do, I talk. I'm out to my husband, my mom and two good friends.

Deb

Okay. As I said up front, I recognize that there is a difference between 'real world' and desire.

What I should have said is - there's a perceived difference.

The reason why people are allowed to get away with making such inappropriate judgements is because we let them.

There's two parts here: someone mentioned that their children would be ostracized. The fact that someone has a problem with the lifestyle is one thing. The fact that the community would accept the ostracizing as permissible is another.

We personally enable such behavior by not insisting on being treated 'just like everyone else', should the subject happen to move from the private to the public arena.

People who would comment negatively or who would allow their decision making process to be influenced by their feelings in regards to what someone does in the bedroom are the ones who should be shunned, ostracised and subject to criticism, rather than supported by their community.

We enable such behavior by allowing what 'THEY' might think or do to influence our personal life decisions.

I've seen so many people suffer under a burden of 'I could lose my house, I could lose my job, it will affect my children, they won't like me on the PTA', that their lives, ultimately, are miserable. They're not living, they're existing, bent under the rules of conforming to some perceived 'proper' way to be, rather than being who they are.

The only way to counter it is to not give it any credence in your life. If your spouse loses their job over lifestyle issues - there are plenty of other jobs. If the kids are picked on, they can learn to defend themselves, or there's always another school, home schooling for that matter. Those who are successful in their professions can go independant, rather than working for someone who can't respect who they are.

Ultimately, the reasons given for remaining hidden are rationalizations for not being who you are. I mean no disrespect for those who have chosen such a course, but in the long run, hiding means you are denying a part of yourselves and you are therefore not fully 'being' yourselves. You may have found a compromise that 'works' for now, but that's exactly what it is, a compromise.

So for you it's "Don't wait until or even if they ask, don't decide whether they need to know or not, just. TELL!"

?

C'mon. If I was vanilla and liked giving head I wouldn't make it public knowledge either.

Okay, rabid, you and i agree that much of the public perception of this lifestyle is "inappropriate." But in the real world, many people don't agree. Like it or not, agree with them or not, that's their right. You call it rationalization, that's your belief and you have every right to express it. When a woman at work tries to impress her religious beliefs on me (out of a sincere concern for the state of my soul), she's expressing her opinion and doing her duty as she sees it, which is her right. i could handle this intrusion - i definitely see it as an intrusion - roughly, tell her she's full of crap, get into a heated discussion with her about those beliefs, and in doing so would impress upon her my beliefs. But then i'm just part of the problem, not part of the solution. Why should i impose my beliefs on her, when i am trying to get her to stop imposing her beliefs on me? That's akin to beating a child in order to get him to stop beating on others.

For me, the ideal society is one in which our private, personal lives are irrelevant to our public lives. Acceptance should never be part of the equation, because it's an irrelevancy. One does not achieve this goal, in my opinion, by parading one's private life in public and demanding acceptance. One achieves this by one's public behavior: by the things we accomplish in our jobs, by the way we handle ourselves, by the way we treat others. When someone in my public life shows any interest whatever in my private life, then i see it as a failure on my part to be effective out there.

That's my ideal world, but that's not the real world. In the real world my sexuality is an issue (or would be, if i allowed it to be). And like it or not, misguided or not, most people consider us defective. And as much as i believe in my expression of my intimate relationships, it's not for me to say that "This is right; this is good." It's right for me, it's good for me; if it's not for someone else, that's okay too.

Perhaps it's because i was born and raised in the Deep South, or perhaps it's because i was born in the mid-50's when times were different. But i was raised to respect others and have a consideration for their feelings and beliefs and lifestyles. That includes people who strongly believe that i'm sick. i will not impose my private life on people for whom it should have no relevance. Simple respect. Common (or not so common) courtesy. i guess that's rationalization enough for me.

Peace
firebaby

Rabid, it's not as simple as that. Losing your child, even your job or your house [which will also affect your child] isn't something that can be shrugged off, or compensating for by the knowledge that you're in the right. Now, I don't disapprove of parents who are openly kinky. They are trailblazing for the rest of us. But how many people want to take the risk with their own family? Being a parent sometimes means acting in the way you feel is best for your child rather than best for yourself. From a child's point of view, how do you think that the risk of losing their friends, their home, even their mother weighs up against their mother being able to express her sexuality openly?

And there AREN'T lots of other jobs. Not everybody who is successful can go independent. It just isn't that easy for a lot of people. Losing their job can mean losing their house, losing opportunities for their children, etc.

And I resent the implication that I'm merely existing, just because I choose who to tell about my sex life instead of making it public knowledge. I can BE what I am without telling everybody what I am. As alpha_femm says, if I was vanilla I wouldn't feel unfulfilled if I couldn't tell everyone what I liked in bed. What bothers me is the worry that if my kinky sex life was made public there would be negative consequences. That doesn't hold me back in anyway from practicing it - it only holds me back from making it public.

i think it is a personal matter how, when and where we are out. It is no one's place to judge what is right for another person when it comes to any kind of outing. The reason people stay "in" are complex and indivdual as are the reasons people come out.

A lot of "in" gays and lesbians are criticized because they aren't "aiding the cause" in facilitating societal acceptance of their lifestyles. i think coming out in SM can be likened to that.

i think it is ironic that in the name of helping to eradicate lifestyle-associated social pressures from others, lifestyle people who criticize others for staying "in" are actually applying their own social pressures.

What gives here? Is it that social pressure is BAD only if the pressure comes from THEM?

Whoa.

et al,

I did not say - go around announcing to all and sundry, willy-nilly, what I'm into.

What I said was, that just like 'giving blowjobs' comes up in normal everyday discourse - or some other sexual topic - my commentary, from my perspective - should not be withheld because others will make life-changing judgements about me.

Every minority needs trailblazers - buts its the majority of adherents joining in that brings about true change. Without the 'rank and file' - all you have are radicals.

On jobs - I've had three different careers so far, have achieved what I consider to be success in each one of them and am beginning a fourth (and perhaps fifth).

On losing children: stop for a moment and re-read what you wrote: "The worry that if my kinky (sex) life was made pupblic there would be negative consequences".

Jewel, I'm not picking on you personally - you simply provided the best example.

Because what you choose to do in private might get revealed publicly - through no fault of your own (since, as you say, you are discrete) - you could suffer awful consequences - is not right. Thjere are two ways to deal with it: 1. Continue to (try) and remain hidden, (which may work for you and others as long as necessary, but ultimately will not work globally) or choose to put yourself in a situation where it can not affect you negatively and you will therefore be able to live free from those worries.

The vast majority of ills, perpetuated upon private, 'normal' individuals who would much prefer to spend their lives doing their own thing and leaving others to do theres are allowed to thrive because everyone is busy 'protecting' what they have, rather than saying 'you have no business judging me because of this'.

I will admit that I have made the vast majority of life choices for myself based upon a need to remain able to contest such concepts and not have to 'worry' about the potential negative consequences - and some would even say that I've 'suffered' becaue of those choices. But I would much rather be able to confront such injustices from a position of knowing that they can not do me harm and live a life that is perhaps 'differently valued' than most than I would worrying about the consequences of not conforming when I disagree with the prevailing "correct way" to be.

One does not have to be gay in order to fight for gay rights and acceptance. One does not have to be "out" in order to fight for gay rights and acceptance. Similarly, one does not have to be a lifestyler to raise awareness and acceptance and one does not have to be "out" in the lifestyle to do so either.

Some people wish to keep their private lives private for a number of reasons--and not all of these reasons are related to a fear of negative consequences resulting from exposure. This preference to stay "in" does not necessarily mean that they are perpetuating negative societal judging and it does not necessarily mean that they are not helping to alleviate that problem.

i guess it all boils down to priorities. For the past 26 years my priority has been responsibly and conscientiously raising my children. Fighting personal battles about my intimate life fall somewhere way behind that, and can be postponed until i can perhaps reorganize my priorities. i have tended to focus on providing an example of honesty, integrity, and personal respect for people and their choices. And while i personally believe quite strongly that we who frequent these boards are no less healthy than society in general, i by no means think this is "The Truth." It's my belief. i respect other beliefs and other people's rights to their beliefs; in return i expect (and demand, when necessary) the same consideration. They have followed a certain path in a certain background that have led them to where they are, just as i have.

And there are a lot of possibilities between hiding and proclaiming. i "hide in plain sight" quite a bit. i am me, and i don't disguise myself. i also don't refer to Master as "Master" at work; that's inappropriate. If anyone who has no business asking about my private life approaches me about it, i simply don't answer. i will not lie; anyone who knows me well absolutely knows that about me, even if they know nothing else. But i have learned that just because someone asks does not mean i have to provide an answer. Just because someone accuses me of something does not mean i have to defend myself. i have personally taken quite a bit of emotional beating over the years because i allowed someone to attack me on the basis of their assumptions, rather than giving them information i thought they had no right to have. *That's* my battle as far as my intimate life is concerned; i will fight to the end my right to keep it private and to *not* let it influence more public aspects of my existence. And that battle is no easier than the battle for acceptance. Those of us who choose to fight for our rights to *not* be judged for good or ill on the basis of our sex lives are just as surely warriors as are those who shout the battle cries that get people's attention.

If i were a religious, married, straight, faithful wife who had sex only with her husband, only at "appropriate" times, and only in the missionary position, i *still* would not allow anyone to put a camera in my bedroom in order to prove it. It's simply nobody's business, no matter the particulars. And that's my battle.

Peace
firebaby

rabid,

Everything you have said would truly be wonderful...but, buddy, this "real" world is just not accepting of those lofty ideals. As individuals, most human beings are tolerable, even pretty nice...as a species, however, we suck big time.

You speak of perception. The "real" world is what I "perceive" it to be, and those "perceptions" come from living among human beings for quite a long time. If the head of the company for which I work perceives my "perversions" as something he does not want to have in his company, I will "perceive", in fairly short order, that I am hungry and cold. If he should, for some "good" reason, that he should "get out the word" on this "pervert", then I will "perceive" that I am hungry and cold and unwanted for a much longer time.

My "private" life, like my religious beliefs and my political beliefs, are my business. Period! To inquire into any of them, except under writ of law, is not tolerated and should someone inquire as to any of those, they will be told, quickly and emphatically, that they are delving into areas that are "private" and clearly none of their business.

I speak freely here because I am with "friends" like myself who, in a large part, are understanding of the desires and needs that are a part of my private life. Also, I can do so with a certain "anonymity". Yes, my real name is Ron and you all probably know that I live in South Carolina...but how many other "Rons" live here also?

Frankly, rabid, my "perception" of "real" life is that there are people in this world that would like to "put me down" just because I breathe the same air that they do and they, perhaps, in some way feel they aren't getting their "fair share" because I am alive. Why would I be willing to provide ammunition for the "gun" they have pointed at my head? I will lead my life quietly, pursue my desires and needs, and, generally, keep a "low" profile. It is the "nail" that sticks up that generally attracts the hammer.

Among "friends", I will debate, I will express my views and opinions, and I will freely interact...but that is among "friends". Among others, should the topic arise, I will say nothing.

Sometime, rabid, ask me about how much being called a "filthy pervert" in a divorce proceeding can cost. Ball park ...about a half a mil, or more, at today's value. Try a waterfront home at the beach, a waterfront home at the lake, and a very nice "main" home in town. Been there...done that...ain't EVER going there again. The judge and jury "perceived" that I was not worthy of owning those things, despite the fact that my earnings, and my earnings alone, "filthy pervert" or not, paid for them. And the company for which I worked, despite the fact that my intellect and hard work had tripled the size of their fortune, were only too glad to see me go. That is the "real" world, my friend.

Knyghtflyher

P.S. Insanity has been described as trying the same thing over and over, in the same way, and expecting different results. The "real" world had their one shot. They will not get another.

knyght,

hey - no one ever said 'the real world' was going to be easy.

I live there too. In my real world, I never bought the 'house by the lake' - cause I didn't want it hanging over my head as a potential threat. Never had kids cause I didn't want that hassle (and wasn't willing to bring any into the 'real world'), blah blah for other material things that the rest of the world values so highly they're willing to sacrifice to get and hang on to them.

Those bosses, the jury of your peers, in the real world were wrong. Big comfort, right? Well, you took a big loss because you gave them things to take away. Your perception was (or sounds like it was) that the big houses were important to you.

My perception is that by being less vulnerable and more confrontational (and I do tend to be an in-your-face confrontationist) I can sometimes change other's perceptions.

I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence (when most others who are offended would rather try to quietly ignore it) I tell whomever straight up that what they just said was unacceptable. I don't tolerate abuse in my presence (and have intervened physically on several occassions). I don't tolerate prejudice in my presence (same, same). I guess I just don't 'suffer fools gladly'. In those (unfortuantely) numerous situations, there have been plenty of others standing around who 'would have liked to do something' but didn't because (and I'm guessing here) they had too much to loose.

I'll say again that I'm not advocating wearing a sandwich sign, but I'll also say again that protecting the assets contributes to and enables the prejudice to be perpectuated.

So let me get this straight, rabid; we should gladly forfeit anything else we may value (family, home, career) for the sake of freedom to live our private lives as we choose? Sounds a lot to me like those in power win in those situations; they're keeping us where we belong, and making us think it's our idea. Isn't that pretty much what defines propaganda?

With that argument, for me, you have made your previous arguments suspect. i, personally, want it all. i want my family (the single most important thing in the world for me), i want a job i enjoy, *and* i want to enjoy my intimacy in my own way. And as i see it, i have a right to all those things as long as i can accomplish them without infringing on someone else's rights. i've been very fortunate: i have all those things, and none of them is worth sacrificing for the sake of saying "Master" in public.

Peace
firebaby

Rabid said << I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence (when most others who are offended would rather try to quietly ignore it)I tell whomever straight up that what they just said was unacceptable. I don't tolerate abuse in my presence (and have intervened physically on several occassions). I don't tolerate prejudice in my presence (same, same). >>

<Applauding>

I have to put my .02 cent worth in here.

Too many people allow others to act with such prejudices. Because I live in the south, I fight my own prejudice battles. Because I am fat, I fight my own prejudice battles. Because I'm kinky when it comes to sex, I fight my own prejudice battles. I have YET to have to fight one battle because I am submissive. Sex doesn't make me submissive. Being submissive makes me more aware of my sex.

I had a conversation with a guy at work who is an ex drug addict and who "Got religion" ..he was speaking of his sister who is a lesbian, someone that he lived with prior to such said religion. He has not had conversations with her since he called her one day telling her she was going to hell for being "like that" which at that point the sister hung up on him. (Good for her).. But at the lunch table we were discussing the big lottery amount and he said how he would love to win.. blah blah blah.. (btw.. gambling is a sin right?) Anyway. He made mention that IF he won the lottery he would lay money that she would be the first to be calling him. I looked at him and said I'd bet more she wouldn't. Adding to that what a hypocrite he was and how I don't think my God would tolerate hate of ANY kind. That it was Gods judgment not ours.,...
Anyway... I don't get to have those kinds of debates very much but boy do they get me going. (In a good way)

I'm one of those that do not hide nor do I have one bit of a problem with people finding out who I am, what I do, what I believe in.

I don't feel having a BDSM logo or leather pride emblem on your car, or stickers on your computer at work is in someway forcing you or your beliefs down anyone's throat. I don't own a bike or carry Gloria's book around as my bible and go visiting around dinner time intruding on someone.
I just feel that it's no different from someone wearing a religious symbol or hanging a picture of your religious choice. Isn't that considered who a person is?

All this talk reminds me too much of the gay and lesbian rights issues. The more they are out and among others the more acceptance there has been. And what a wonderful thing.
(Disclaimer: I'm in no way saying that the gay and lesbian struggle is over or even near it.. but you have to admit it's way more accepted or even perceived as accepted than it used to be)

I've seen in a lot of the post that BDSM is compared to being sexual. To me that means orgasmic sexual. My submissiveness is not about how many orgasms I can have. heck I can have plenty on my own without BDSM play. It's about my need to be submissive/serving another.

I admit, some of the most wonderful orgasms I've had was during play. However, I've had some pretty dang good ones playing in other ways as well.
What I feel BDSM is...is spiritual. Being able to see in someone's soul, knowing what they are thinking, seeing their heart-beating because you are inside of them... riding with their blood through their veins into the very part that keeps a person alive... Well THAT my friends is more powerful and gratifying than any orgasm I've ever had. The high there is lasting. Not ending when you catch your breath and stop sweating.

I could go on..
~chris

rabid,

Those things that I lost did not have the "importance" to which you allude. They were merely the "perks" that went along with 14 hour work days and a certain "success" that I saw while pursuing the "American dream". You know, the wife, the 2.5 kids, the dog named "Spot", the picket fence...ad nauseum. rabid, this happened 20+ years ago, in a "small" town in the Deep South. At least 2 generations have risen since then and the "real" world is a much different place, but the prejudice remains, and, sadly, some modicum of "prejudice" has been present in the "real" world since god made grass. That doesn't make it "right", it just makes it a "fact".

They were entitled to their "views", and their "views" prevailed. I can't "hate" them for that because they were merely the product of everything they had known during their entire life. Their "perception" of me, and my dreams and desires, were "true" according to their experience and knowledge. Unfortunately, I was outnumbered and lost that battle...doesn't mean I've lost the "war" yet.

And, perhaps I'm stupid, but I even fought in a war that I thought was, in some way, preserving the freedom to have "free" thoughts...fought to allow them the "right" to be prejudiced and live their lives as they saw fit. And, you know, I'd probably do it again if the need arose, because if I didn't, I'd "lose" something also...my beliefs in "freedom" and "free expression".

I have, on many occasions, "spoken out" against intolerance and prejudice, and perhaps, in some small way, some VERY small way, have changed the "perception" of others...and that might be a good thing, but I choose the battles that I fight much more carefully now. If that makes me an "enabler" of the perpetuation of those "narrow" mind sets that are found in the "nilla" world, then you are entitled to that opinion. I paid a "blood" price to allow you that option, and I would gladly pay it again. (Hope I don't have to because I'm getting a little too old for that "running around in the woods toting a gun with my life on the line" crap...gets to a point where the "bod" doesn't like it anymore)...lol.

My "material" possessions are fewer now, or maybe they're just "harder" to find...lol. Everyone, in my experience, has something to "lose", even if they live in a cardboard box under an interstate over pass. But, I am being "true" to myself. I "live" the life I want, not having bowed my head to their "vision" of how I should live, and I will continue that...albeit a bit more "discreetly".

And prejudice...it will always be around in some form. To tell the truth, I have some myself. I'm real prejudiced when it comes to "snipers" indiscrimintly taking lives, and "slavemasters" placing "used" subbies in 55-gallon drums, and "terrorists" that fly airplanes into buildings, killing thousands. The "fact" that these "prejudices" are probably in the "majority" in this country doesn't change the "fact" that they are just that...prejudices. I guess, in having those "prejudices", because they are in the "majority", I become one of the "good" guys...lol.

Getting "verbal diarrhea" here, you know, that "liquidly brown stuff that shoots from a yak's ass" to which Justin so frequently refers, so I guess I'll climb down from the "soap box" upon which I stand. Thanks for listening.

Knyghtflyher

Firebaby,

I know your message was not to me, so forgive me for jumping in here.

How I see it, It's all in what you choose to do. If you want to remain private, that's wonderful and great. But if you are lacking something by not saying "Master" in public or if you fear the loss of something because you say "Master" in public then somethings wrong with this world.... and if you're not lacking or fearful and still choose not to say it... That's wonderful as well.

On a separate note..I don't think that anyone would find many people that want to know how anyones sexual lives are. However, being a certain way (Person) is completely different than telling people what you do in your bedroom.

Again, sex v/s who a person is... two different topics here... IMO.

~chris

Personally, i'm out to people who are important to me and that is as far as it goes. It isn't that i'm ashamed or that i fear negative consequences; rather it is that i am a private person and would no sooner extol the secrets of my sexuality than i would give out my phone number. i see no reason to be "out" in certain circumstances, just as i see no reason to divulge my religion or my phone number.

There are very little risks to me associated with coming out. i am not married and i do not have any kids. i do not belong to a church. i do not hold an important public office. i work in an environment with other educated, liberal-minded pointy heads who could care less what other people do in their social lives. Yet i haven't "come out" to anyone except people who are important to me. My being mostly in has nothing to do with fear of prejudice etc. It is simply my preference to keep my social affairs private.

Coming out or not coming out has to do with my having the CHOICE to tell or NOT to tell others more about me. i will not be browbeat or guilted into coming out simply to further an agenda. i enjoy the compartmentalization. i enjoy the privacy. i enjoy the schizophrenia. And if my choices and preferences don't fit into the furthering of some agenda set by others, tuff toenails (my Owner excepting, of course).

Isn't the freedom to make our own choices what we are all trying to achieve? Why then all the hoopla surrounding what we *must* do in order contribute our share to this struggle? This kind of pressure to come out is no different than the kind of pressure put on us to hide what we do or...not do it at all. The only difference is the source. How can social pressure be justified as a means to eliminate social pressure?????

Finally, there are many ways to advocate for our freedoms that do not involve coming out. One need not even be a lifestyler in order to squash non-acceptance--let alone does one have to be out as a lifestyler. i do not believe that one's preference to stay in necessarily contributes to the perpetuation of the stigma associated with the lifestyle. There are many paths to gaining acceptance and everyone should have the right to make their own choices on how they will (or will not) contribute.

You are right, Chris, it is a matter of choice, or as i put it, priorities. i simply perceived that we were being told that not being out to those we work with (or for), socialize with, or share family ties with was tantamount to hiding and was (as i interpreted it, right or wrong) cowardly and contributed to society's lack of acceptance. It was *that* to which i took umbrage. i do not hide, nor do i announce. i maintain (and fight for) my right to privacy which is, in my opinion, my most precious right as an American citizen. i too have confronted prejudice face-on, on many occasions. There is no comparison between condoning prejudice and keeping my intimate life private. If i see prejudice to the lifestyle being perpetrated i will react exactly the same as i would react to seeing racial or religious prejudice perpetrated. That is, i will step up and confront. What i will *not* do is say "i'm one of those people, so hate me or accept me too." i will fight prejudice on the grounds of it being prejudice, not because i have any personal interest in the particular point of contention. That is what drives me: what i feel/think is right, not what i can personally relate to.

And i should say this (i've said it before, but long ago, so many of you probably haven't seen it): i do not trust society's acceptance. It's fickle, in my experience, and not to be counted on. What "polite" society will shun today it will accept tomorrow, and next week the condemnation will be that much more vehement for it. When i come out, it will be without regard to what society's response to it will be. It will be done strictly because it's right for *me* at the time, not because society has decided to accept it.

Peace
firebaby

I guess I'm not making enough of a distinction here.

Who I am includes everything about who I am - not just one aspect (employee, SO, son, kinky person, writer, etc) - the pieces can't be divided up and aren't divided up into different aspects to deal with different roles in life.

Many folks (and I'm not including those here unless they want to cop to it) are one person at work, another at their religious institution, another to their kids, another to their SOs, et etc.) - but I'm not.

I didn't mean to imply 'hiding' in a negative fashion - and I was certainly not trying to get personal with anyone - merely using various examples of what others wrote to take off on.

I was expressing an alternative way to deal with the situation and trying to say - as ckim did above - that the more open and 'what I do is just as normal as what anyone else does' you present yourselves is the path towards gaining greater acceptance and eliminating the negative consequences that so many of you have either had to deal with or are trying to avoid having to deal with by the compromises you've made.

Yes, knyght, everyone does have 'something' to lose: the real question is what choices they make when threatened with losing it.

Since you mentioned fighting to preserve 'everyone's freedoms, I'll also paraphrase whichever founding father it was who said something along the lines of 'freedom isn't something that can be given to you; every generation has to make its own'.

Firebaby,

Oh gosh no, I wouldn't even go up to someone and say "Hey, guess what I did last night?.." lol
I don't try to convert anyone, or offer to show anyone anything. Now if they come up to me asking about some symbol or emblem, they better be ready for an answer. But all I usually have to say is something about Dominance and submission and the conversation usually ends right there without too much detail. To my surprise sometimes it doesn't and the conversation gets very interesting. But then again, how many people actually ask? Most people I know wouldn't.. they would just talk and whisper about it behind my back. :)

Again, I think it comes down to if something in your personal life is lacking because of you not being yourself or because someone is fearful of what others may think... then we have a problem and you can bet my beaten backside that I'll stand up either by myself, or if you choose.. right along with you. :)

It sounds like for you, your "priorities" are in the right place... and it works. That's what counts.

~chris

"Who I am includes everything about who I am - not just one aspect (employee, SO, son, kinky person, writer, etc) - the pieces can't be divided up and aren't divided up into different aspects to deal with different roles in life."

Perhaps we are just perceiving our own actions differently. i really cannot fathom the possibility that you are overtly sexual everywhere, regardless of the circumstances, surroundings, or company; or that you, conversely, are not sexual at all around your significant other. i am, as i said, a parent first; i brought these children into the world, and they are my responsibility. i take that responsibility extremely seriously. i am not overtly sexual with my children; they know (as does everyone) that i am a sexual being, that i have a sex life. i discuss my sexuality differently to my children, my close friends, my significant other, casual acquaintances, and co-workers. They each, in my opinion, have a right to different levels of information and different ways of expressing myself. i would no more walk around in front of acquaintances and co-workers (or my children or grandchildren) wearing nothing but play collar and cuffs than i would go to the opera in liquid latex (although the latter is much more likely than the former). It's simply inappropriate.

From your last post, i can only assume that you and i are seeing this differently. i am content to let this lie, as apparently we are simply seeing through different sets of eyes, so to speak.

Peace
firebaby

A very interesting thread, thanx to all who posted :-)

I agree with everybody, to a certain extent :-)

I have not "come out" as an advocate for the lifestyle because I'm am ill equiped to _defend_ the lifestyle against all attacks. I lack the basic knowledge of facts and figures, as well as the experience with the most common "catch phrase" that would allow me to present a knowledgable response. I would just make things worse, therefore I stay away from battles I know I cannot win.

I have not "come out" within my own family because some close relative (no, not my darling sub) have had some truly horrific experiences with crime and are still dealing with the after-effects. When, and if, they are at a point in their healing when they feel comfortable discussing kink my sub and I will reconsider our closet life.

In public my sub and I tend to be a little on the light-hearted side. We've never shoved our lifestyle in anybody's face, but we are a little bit on the exhibitionist side :-) Haven't intentionally offended anyone, but have raised more than our share of eyebrows. I don't _think_ we've met anyone in the lifestyle out there in public, although we do get "hit on" quite a bit... maybe we have and just don't know it :-)

As far as the "roles" I assume in life, I try to be as honest as I can. However, as a fallible human being I am the person least qualified to analyze and observe myself :-) As far as I can tell, I am the same _person_ thruout. I do intentionally make some "adjustments" :-) I am a lot softer and gentler around the kids and grandkids, mouthier and unrestrained around my adult friends, proper and respectul around my elderly aunts and step mom, etc.

TooLoose :-)

*heavy sigh* damn yall just get to the voting booths and vote your conscious, regardless of where you fall on whatever fence.

Justin Medlin
Just Back From
A Great Event With
A Chat Room Crowd
From Alt.com

To All and Sundry who has been posting in this thread...

However silly it may seem, I just had to tell you that I felt you all are

!wonderful people! !Fabulous! !Great! *mwhuh* <- is kiss for all to share.

I don't mean this in a slimy, isn't-this-planet-a-beautiful-place-flower-girl-peace-man-way...

I mean, here I am, after a bout of rediculous busyness, on the first day of my autumn break, I finally get to this site, even more finally remember my login *I tried to get on a few times late at night in the past few days and was too tired to remember my original login* sit down with a big coffee and my break-fast hoping there will be anything new and interesting on here, and *li'l drumroll* hey presto!

This thread.

Enough to read, agree, disagree, think about, laugh at, admire to last me all breakfast. as usual, no smut, no flamewars, no personal attacks, no prescribed emotions or opinions...Where else do you find a site for 'people like us' like this? Have all of you forgotten how much prejudice and intolerance there exists within BDSM on the whole?

I mean, if 'we' cannot even accept 'ourselves' as 'we' are, if some kinds of 'play' is still better or higher or more real than others, if your kink still to some extent has to be my kink before I am accepted in the group of people who in some way or form subscribe to the tag BDSM, how can we expect the world around us to do what we, as of yet, cannot even do for ourselves?

I don't lie about who and what I am anymore, not for the past few years. My real close friends all know, and those who don't yet will do as soon as the topic of sex comes up. I really don't think it is all about sex. It has also got to do with sex, but I am a very sexual person. BDSM is way more than that to me though. But telling them about it is easier, and has more positive results when the people I am telling have their brain switched to the 'talking-sex-with-girlfriend' setting *grin*.

My parents know but they choose not to ask questions (there is a ceiling to floor post in my living room, overtly for the cat to scratch its claws on, but then why is there a leather strap with a loop on it just high enough to have me on tippy toes if....lol, and my mum once found a leather bikini in my same room from kinky shop I know she visited at least once...)

It is a kinky shop.

Not a lingery shop that sells some fluffy cuffs too, not a general sex shop with an SM section in a dark murky corner. It is a tasteful, in your face, reasonably priced shop where you can buy everything from nipple-clamps to cats, swings, neck-corsets, thumb-cuffs, inflatable plugs, gimp-masks, all kinds of clothes and outfits etc...Good quality.

I saw their own personal logo in one of my mum's bikini-bottoms. They only sell their stuff at that shop. That was a definite chuckle-worthy moment in the life of katey...

It did make me think... could it be hereditary?

But that is by the by.

I am sure none of you who agree with Rabid and Justin, or even these illustrious members themselves, would expect an English teacher, like myself, to go to work to face the education of teenagers between 12 and 18 wearing my katey outfit: cuffs on all limbs, collar, strategically placed leather triangles, bells round ankles...lots of naked skin. How many of them would still obey me knowing the full extent of the meaning of 'me'?

I don't know.

How many people in the entire school, colleagues, pupils, all of them, would be thinking about anything other than me and what I look like?

I do know that.

None of them. In my opinion, a school is there for the education and upbringing of the pupils in it, it isn't an exhibitionist-staff-playground.

That doesn't mean I don't agree with a lot of the things that were said. I wish I lived in a society where I could sit on the floor at Master's feet with my head on his knee in the cinema wearing my slavey-things. (It is the yummiest way to watch) If it is rather empty I do sit like that too but the climate out here forbids wearing that little as well as calvinist society does. I wish Master could do what he wanted with me wherever and whenever he wanted to do it. But if I have stripes and wheels on my back, bottom and thighs, I don't go to a sauna. I can't stand the scandalised looks of pity. (looks of envy at me and admiration at H I could take but I am not holding my breath.)

When we go out dancing, in a normal vanilla disco or club I wear my collar more often than not. There are usually more visible clues as well. We do this for out own enjoyment, not to be in everybody's face.

Back to my profession: I wish I could be honest to my pupils about my life. About my opinions. And in my own way i am. When I am asked whether i use drugs, and I always am at least a few times a year, I say I drink alcohol, tea, coffee, and eat chocolate. They mean to ask me whether I smoke pot (H and I live in the Netherlands), and always react like I am cheating. I explain that those things I mention are indeed drugs, and I explain what they do in your body and why they work the way they work. I also explain, since I am talking about drugs...about endorfine and adrenaline, and that your body makes those all by itself when you are say...running hard for a long time and taking exammes. Eventually they ask outright whether I smoke joints. The only thing I feel I can say is that the school's policy is 'NO' on drugs, and that I feel I must adhere to the school's policy. After that I tell them that, if they do want to talk about drugs with me, that they shouldn't ask me whilst I am in my capacity as a teacher of the school. 'Ask me outside school, when I am just me, and I can tell you. But this evasive answer tells you all you wanted to know, doesn't it?' I also tell them that, just like I don't come to school drunk, I wouldn't come to school intoxicated in any other way, because I don't think that is right.

Kids ask me questions about all kinds of things, including my personal life. Hobbies, relationships tastes. They haven't asked me about my sex-life, and that i wouldn't share with them. I do talk about as many things as possible, whether it has anything to do with English or not. I feel it is part of my job to help raise these kids as healthy and happy adults. To me this would mean showing them somehow, that the world is comprised of a whole lot of very different people, and that most of those people have a perfect right to be in it and that the differences is what makes the world such an interesting place. There isn't much that gets me more furious than bullying and intolerance. Discriminatory remarks of any kind immediately cause class discussions to arise in my classroom...I do my bit to make this world a more tolerant place for all walks of life. I don't think it would be right to walk around school dressed the way you describe yourself Justin, however much I agree with your right to dress and express yourself the way your want. I think that as long as the world isn't the ideal place we all would like to live in, as long as Masters and slaves are not a regular recognisable feature of every day street life, a secondary school just isn't the right place for a single tail, however much I sometimes wish I was allowed to use one *grin*.

I do not hide the fact from anyone that H is boss in our relationship. 'There cannot be more than one captain on a ship'. I get mixed responses, which I find interesting, and I have never yet shied away from a discussion.

I must say though,...

If I saw anyone dressed completely 'out' like that walking down a street in this city, I would immediately walk over and talk to him/her. Outside of specific clubs, I have never seen anyone be that out about it in this entire country.... seeing someone like that would feel like...

I am a lilac frog in a country full of green frogs...never seen another frog like me...I wear green clothes and a green cap and a green facemask...wearing all that I walk down the street and see a lilac frog. As lilac as can be... no masks, not even green socksies...hopping along in broad daylight. It would be the event of the day, hell perhaps even the week.

 Good to be back,

kate

Hi, folks. Thought I would update you with the current results of the poll that started this thread! :-) Here are the cumulative data as of today, October 21, 2002:

Total number of responses: 114
Number of unique respondents: 114

1) I personally identify as:
BDSM 41.2%
D/s 29.8%
Leather 3.5%
Lifestyle SM 14.9%
something else 10.5%
Left unanswered by 0% of respondents

2) I have had explicit consensual adult BDSM/fetish encounters in real life (not on-line)
Frequently 54.4%
I used to but don't anymore 4.4%
Never 3.5%
Occasionally 21.1%
Once or twice 16.7%
Left unanswered by 0% of respondents

3) Are/were those encounters erotic for you?
Actual sex was involved and it turned me on sexually 66.7%
BDSM/fetish encounters aren't sexual for me 1.8%
Something else 4.4%
There was a sexual component but that wasn't what turned me on 14%
There was no direct sexual contact but it turned me on sexually 10.5%
Left unanswered by 2.6% of respondents

4) Vanilla sexual encounters, without any BDSM element, are satisfying
Strongly Disagree 7.9%
Disagree 16.7%
Neutral 21.9%
Agree 43%
Strongly Agree 9.6%
Left unanswered by 0.9% of respondents

5) BDSM encounters without any vanilla sexual components are satisfying to me
Strongly Disagree 3.5%
Disagree 17.5%
Neutral 15.8%
Agree 29.8%
Strongly Agree 32.5%
Left unanswered by 0.9% of respondents

6) What drew you to the BDSM/fetish scenes? (check all that apply)
A partner or friend introduced me to this world 25.4%
I am drawn to it, but I'm not sure why 24.6%
I had these fantasies/desires since childhood 79.8%
I stumbled onto it on the Internet 22.8%
I wanted to be a part of something 7%
I was drawn to the spiritual aspects 21.9%
I was looking for a sexual adventure 22.8%
It made me sexually excited 78.1%
It's cool 13.2%
None of the above 2.6%
Left unanswered by 0% of respondents

7) Acting on my BDSM/fetish desires has made me a happier person
Strongly Disagree 0.9%
Neutral 13.2%
Agree 36%
Strongly Agree 49.1%
Left unanswered by 0.9% of respondents

8) Being involved with "The Scene" has made me a happier person
Strongly Disagree 2.6%
Disagree 4.4%
Neutral 32.5%
Agree 35.1%
Strongly Agree 18.4%
Left unanswered by 7% of respondents

9) If I met someone who was 100% vanilla but perfect in every other way, I would give up BDSM/fetish stuff for life.
Strongly Disagree 20.2%
Disagree 40.4%
Neutral 25.4%
Agree 9.6%
Strongly Agree 2.6%
Left unanswered by 1.8% of respondents

As fascinating as the data are, I was really floored by the fantastic answers you all gave to the little essay question at the end of the poll. From incredibly funny (and more than a little smart-ass *g*) to quite profound and touching, here are the things you've written thus far in response to essay question #10:

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE.....

it turns me on sexually.
 
... it is a deep part of who I am.
 
...........exactly. Justin

...because power exchange is exciting, and uplifting.
 
...it satifies my desires...and hopefully my partners..
 
...it's a core aspect of who I am. It's as simple as that.

..it's part of who I am. Not a choice. Just the way God made me.
 
As Popeye the Sailor Man once said, "I yam what I yam!".

I live this life because no other satisfies me in every way.

Giving control of myself to my Dom makes me feel free. *g*

I DO BDSM FETISH STUFF BECAUSE of the intensity of the play and the place it brings me.

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE ... that's what floats my boat, baby! I am a very sexual person and I enjoy all sorts of sensual contact. I can enjoy sex without a BDSM context, but it always leaves me wondering how much better it could be if only ...

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE IT FEELS VERY EROTIC TO ME AND BECAUSE I LOVE THE VULNERABILITY AND TRUST NECESSARY IN SHARING SUCH INTIMATE FEELINGS AND PLEASURES WITH A PARTNER.

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE it excites me like vanilla sex just can't. BDSM can be expressed is so many varied ways that I will likely always find something intriguing to try, or at least fatasize about. Besides, at our best, vanilla sex only ever lasts about 20 minutes. Playing before sexual realease can stretch that out to hours. When we're done, it's like we've touched so much more of each other's centers... it's much more intimate that way.

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE, it makes me feel sexually satisfied.

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE.... it's so dam much fun to be tied up and spanked, have hot wax dripped on you and being fucked in the ass with a strap-on... then 'forced' to orally please your Mistress!!!
 
I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE.... There has always been something primally and intensely erotic about it that I can't get out of my head. As early as age three, I remember being fascinated by women's legs and feet in shiny stockings and spike heeled pumps-- my mother, my friends' moms, even my elementary and Sunday school teachers. I would cocoon myself up in my bedsheets and fantasize myself deliciously into the captivity roles from spy and western TV shows, or movies set in barbaric times, many years before I understood what sexual excitement was all about.

I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE........there, ya happy now? LOL! I wrote it because you asked, not because I want to. Here's what I want to say: I didn't "come across BDSM". I slowly began to realize that I have always been inclined to a 'way'. It took many years for all the tiny little snapshots of my life to resolve into my big picture. The picture of ME and how I am inside. There has always been someone residing inside of me who anxiously awaits the moment when real life receeds and the pleasures of the flesh then commence. She knew for what she was waiting; now I do as well. I don't fit any single category of BDSM. In time, my Master says, I will come to embrace them all. I like being tied by and to my Master. I enjoy His power. I want my flesh to be striped for His pleasure. W/we evolve every day, and with each sunrise, a new promise is made. The promise of things to come. Yet, in real life: I cannot be at another's beck and call; I do not enjoy causing or feeling pain; I do not wish to be tied to another. To none but my Master. He can resist my 'charms' as He sees fit. He quenches my appetites and controls my favors. At O/our private times, real life goes away, and I become that other person. She who waits inside: she who craves the bonds, the pain, the domination of the mind, the subjugation of the flesh........... she waits no more........ 1
I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE....I DO BDSM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE.... 1
I DO BSDM/FETISH STUFF BECAUSE it allows my mate and I to share in a highly personal, intimate way. By giving and receiving to each other, what we truly need/want, it creates a bond deeper than any words can ever represent. It also enhances the biblical man/woman roles that are natural, stripping away the unnatural roles society has forced upon us in the last several decades.
 
I WAS SPANKED AND FOUND THAT IT CAN BE VERY SEXUAL

I _do_ because I _am_
 
I can connect at a primoral level with my partner. We share feelings and desires that cannot be consummated any other way.

I disagree to #9 because I did just that--met someone who was 100% vanilla (or so I thought) but perfect in every other way. I married him (29 years ago); we're still together; he's still perfect; and very, VERY occasionally we play. At first, he played because it was such a turn on for me; now he's starting to understand WHY my submission (and the BDSM aspects of it) are such a turn on. So, I guess he's only 98% vanilla now. :-)

I do BDSM/Fetish Stuff because it makes me hot.
 
I do BDSM/Fetish stuff becasue when I first encountered it (at age seventeen flipping through "Screw Magazine" and coming across advertisements for Dominatrixes) I became highly sexually aroused. I was very hesitant to act on my impulse because I was ashamed of it, and it took me five years before I was able to actually schedule an appointment with a Dominatrix and have Sado Masochism performed on me. Now, at age forty, I have participated in about fifty Sado Masochism sessions. Some of these sessions were very memorable, others were not so nice. Some of the Dominatirxes I have sessioned with were very talented and knew how to administer Sado Masochism in such a method that was very enjoyable and exciting. Others were not as talented and I did not enjoy my time with them. The part of Sado Masochism that appeals most to me is the action of interacting with a woman in a sexual manner that is "different" than regular intercourse. Verbal dialogues, physical sensations and explorations are so much different in Sado Masochism as compared to regular intercourse, and a talented Dominatrix is so different than a woman who does not understand what Sado Masochism is. In Sado Masochism, a different type of lustful behavior is satisfied as compared to regular intercourse, and being able to perform or act out that behavior with a woman who understands, welcomes and encourages such desires can be a very satisfying experience.

I do BDSM/Fetish stuff because I have a deep need for it. It makes me feel more complete and more alive.

I do BDSM/Fetish stuff because I've fantasized about it since I was a child. I was amazed when I first found a BDSM literature that fit those fantasies. I thought it was a personal quirk of mine. Who knew it was a common theme in the love lives of thousands of others. I've explored my fantasies in real life with some limitations. I've had some beautiful experiences along the way. I'm a male submissive and have been fortunate enough to meet a few fasinating mistresses.

I do BDSM/Fetish stuff because a) it allows me to express my complete devotion to my Master in a more deep and complete way than anything else I can do and b) it is highly erotic and enjoyable for both of us.
 
I do BDSM/Fetish stuff because it is how I like to express myself and live in the world. It is just me. 1
I do BDSM/Fetish stuff because it provides a creative outlet for my sexuality. I enjoy the thrill of being deviant in a politically correct world. I enjoy making my pet squirm and writhe knowing that I have the ability to make him beg. I enjoy the clothing, the smells, the sights.

I do BDSM/Fetish stuff because it's who I am and I got tired of arguing with myself. Tired of putting myself down, of hating myself, of hiding. So I sought a partner, and then partners, who not only accepted me, but liked me, just like I am.

I do BDSM/fetish stuff because, to me, it's the mystery and intrigue that's really exciting. I get off on having a blindfold put on me, and being restrained. It's always the idea of what the dominant is going to do, and if he's a good dominant, he will keep his boy happily guessing.

I do bdsm/fetish stuff because I want to be in control and I love the rewards of having a partner who needs to please me.

I do it 'cos I finally feel I have let out my inner self.I'm not shunned by 'lifestylers'for it.It's nice to know all these feelings I've had for so long are the norm instead of the abnormal somewhere!!!!As I've always said..To err is human...to submit..divine!!!
 
I do it because it feels good doing it both mentally and phyically. It has become a means to an end. Often all I need is the play. I am also a switch and that component has its own rules and feelings which I have also come to cherish.

I enjoy it and it's what I am

I get turned on by watching others "play". I can enjoy the dynamics involved, the safety factoring into scenes...When I get to play, which isn't often, I know what I want to do/try, whether I bottom or top... 1
I had denied it to myself for a long time, finally realized that it was a core 'need' and (finally, thank god) had a wonderful opportunity to re-engage with it.

I like it

I love every second of it. I don't feel bad about it. I like it and I like myself and I am happy with the way I am.

I never grew up.

I want to.

I was introduced to it by a partner and it has helped me to understand myself, caused me to reflect more deeply on who I am.

I'm wired this way for whatever reason.

It adds variety and spice to sexual encounters

It comes natural to me. I wouldn't say I "do" BDSM stuff, it's not so much of a choice as that sounds.
 
It is part of me and that part gives me pleasure.

It turns me on!!!

It's part of what I am, sexually. Nothing else gives quite the feeling that practicing sadism gives me.

The excitement pushes my sexual desire to new heights.

i do BDSM/Fetish stuff because it feels right. i have dreamed about this for a LONG time, and to truly get turned on, i need it. i used to think i just would never get satisfaction from a real relationship, i now know it is because nilla relationships lack what i need.

i do BDSM/fetish stuff because it satisfies me on a deep emotional level. i find myself calmer than ever before; i can relax and just "be."

i do bdsm because there is no other way for me to be. i do not know anything else and i do not want anything else. i have never felt "vanilla" love or "vanilla" lust. i have never had a vanilla relationship. This lifestyle isn't about sex for me. It doesn't have to do with the scenes or any of that stuff either. It is something different. It's like this persistent drive inside of me, something that won't go away. It is like everything in life, all rolled into one: giving, sharing, serving, pleasing, understanding, loving, taking risks. i cannot imagine anything being more satisfying. i cannot imagine any other way to love. Thank you for having this site. -singed phoenix

i do bdsm/fetish stuff because i *must*.

i do it because it is my release from my everyday boring life and makes me feel great!

i do the BDSM/fetish stuff because without it, i feel as though there is a piece of me missing.

it feels natural to me and makes me feel happier and more honest within myself

it gives me a sense & feeling of freedom ,of being who & what i feel i really am. All this & it's very satisfying .

it is thrilling, and mentally and sexually exciting and has more meaning and sustance then anything i have experienced in vanilla relationships...ok and I like pain too but that is just icing.

it's ingrained in me and it makes me hot.

that is one of the things that turns me on like nothing else. 99% of my fantisies involve BDSM in some way.
 
that is what works for me!

kate,

excellent!

Summed up and said many of the things I was groping towards in my own posts.

Yes, I still edge over into 'in your face' - but no, I don't walk down the street on either end of a leash. Would I if given the opportunity? Yes - IF it were appropriate for K and I and IF we could do so in a responsible manner.

Which I think sums up the core of your statements: responsibility and making (appropriate) value judgements on what to do when.

"Do you do drugs?" Your answer doesn't dodge and it also doesn't break the rules. Given the age of your students its appropriate and resonsible. (But of course, we all know that if such an answer got back to a parent or administrator who wanted to make trouble, they could and, this being the real world and all, they'd probably 'win' - a battle I would be happy to lose as any administration that wouldn't recognize your responsible handling of the situation and tell the troublemaker to go elsewhere are folks with no backbone).

Responsibility. There's responsibility to ones' self, there's responsibility to your close intimates (be it family, friends, lovers, whatever) and then responsibility to the greater society/culture you live in.

Responsibility to self has to come first, otherwise there's no foundation for the rest of it. Our initimates are those who rarely cause clashes with our responsibility to ourselves - which is probably why they've remained close.

Its when our selves clash with the preceived responsibility to society that we run into trouble. Your drug question is a perfect metaphor. I'm one who believes that the more knowledge and empowerment someone has, the better off they are and the more capable they will be in making important decisions for themselves. You OUGHT to be able to serve as a role model for your students as someone who does use drugs "recreationally" - but only when they do not interfere with your other responsibilities. Being open about that would give a lot of those kids a chance to see that its NOT the hidden, mysterious lure they've come to think of it as. And besides, most kids aren't really too keen on 'doing what the adults do'.

Oh well. Rambling after a long silence: the PC died a few days ago and I'm just getting back.

Interesting. "responsibility and making (appropriate) value judgments on what to do when." That's what i have been trying to say all along. Thank you, kate.

Peace
firebaby

firebaby,

we're not that far apart afterall.

However, I think the order in which I listed responsibilities was the main idea I was trying to convey: self first, initmates second, society last.

My 'self' demands that I not hedge, conceal or in any other manner try to 'smooth things over' in order to get along effectively in society. What you see is what you get, no difference between the public and private persona.

kate said "I don't lie about who and what I am anymore, not for the past few years. My real close friends all know, and those who don't yet will do as soon as the topic of sex comes up. I really don't think it is all about sex. It has also got to do with sex, but I am a very sexual person. BDSM is way more than that to me though. But telling them about it is easier, and has more positive results when the people I am telling have their brain switched to the 'talking-sex-with-girlfriend' setting *grin*."

and this is what came so close to what I was trying to say earlier: when the topic comes up, everyone knows who I am and what I'm into - whether it costs my job, my house, a friendship or whatever. If 'vanillas' are free to describe their activities, so am I.

That's not walking down the street on a leash, nor is it hiding. Its 'responsibility to myself'.