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HOT TOPIC for Oct 16 2002: BDSM COPS

1 GloriaBrame     2020-10-16 01:04

Hi, folks.

This issue is currently being debated on one of my lists (okay, it's possible I'm the one debating it...passionately) :-) I was wondering what you all feel about this issue and whether you can offer ideas on strategies and ethics on dealing with these situations.

Here's the story: in the Atlanta community a few years back, a group of local leaders created a BDSM "tribunal." They would hear cases (say a sub accused a dom of criminal behavior, for one example of an actual case) and then render judgment which would result in some form of punishment for the miscreant. (In the specific case I know about, a het maledom was sentenced to being a service slave to a local gay leader who would "reform" him through training.)

(There is a separate aspect here regarding just *who* was on that panel, but I'll save that one for another Hot Topic *g*)

There is now discussion of setting up a list where people may report rumors and moderators will attempt to get first-person accounts. Its purpose is to sort out rumors from realities; there will be no punishments per se; however if the moderator (who is an attorney and thus an officer of the court) feels a crime was committed he will report the criminal to the police.

What do you think of the above? Is it a good idea to have tribunals or other panels of judges to dictate ethical behavior (and sentence wrong-doers)? If so, what kinds of sentences would be effective? What are the benefits/problems of this approach?

How about the mailing list: in light of the unbelievable amount of crap-a-doodle being spread about secret orders and societies, including some plain old-fashioned nasty rumor-mongering among gossips, would a mail-list like this be a good tool for rooting out truth? Or does it invite even more problems? What do you think about the moderator contacting police if/when he believes a crime was committed?

How do you feel about SMers policing ourselves in general? We already know a lot of con artists, scamsters, and sociopathic liars are operating in our midst. Can we stop them? Should we try? What can or should we do?

Even if you've never stuck a toe inside a BDSM club, or just found out you're kinky yesterday, your opinion counts so please don't hesitate to speak up. It's an issue that could, ultimately, affect us all some day.


2 memneth     2020-10-16 09:13

It's a crock.
It was a crock before.
It is still a crock now.
It will always be a crock.
BDSM does not operate on laws of its own, to try and act as if we do is ludicrous. If its a crime, its turned over to the police by the partites involved, not a semi retired lawyer.

Justin Medlin

3 knyghtflyher     2020-10-16 10:46


My $.02. Sounds like a "kangaroo" court, to me. Who is going to "write" the BDSM "laws" that would be enforced in these "courts"? What about the other "protections" that go along with being in "real" court? If I am accused of a "dastardly" act, I want to be "tried" in an atmosphere that, at least, gives lip service to justice. You know, the old "beyond a reasonable doubt" bit in a criminal court and the "preponderance of the evidence" requirement in a civil court. What about evidence? Who is going to collect it and how can the veracity of the "evidence" be preserved and judged? Who will represent the "accused"? Just too damn many questions in my mind...questions that lead me to believe the idea is a lot of horse poop...and I haven't even gotten to the selection of the "judges" who will be "hearing" the case.

Naah...no way. You suspect that I am involved in a "criminal" act...bring it before a "real" court. The same goes for a "civil" action. "Real" courts and "real" judges are the only way anything like this could be "fairly" administrated.


4 ultraviolet     2020-10-16 10:46

The tribunal idea is frankly stupid. Self policing of this sort will never work. Sentencing somebody to be a service slave, if they don't want to be one, is not ever going to reform them. If somebody actually breaks the law, then the real police should be called in.
The mailing list idea is not so bad , but it would have to be locally based. I don't think one could verify accusations in another city.

5 Jewel     2020-10-16 13:23

I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but on first reading the idea made me feel very uncomfortable. Here are some of the thoughts that came into my head - more like a whole load of questions [typically for me!]:

How would the leaders/moderators/judges/jury/etc by chosen? Would they be self-appointed? Would they be nominated? And if so by whom, and on what criteria?

What would constitute a crime?

How could the sentences be enforced? How could the suspected 'criminals' be made to take part in the process?

What sort of problems would arise from trying to sort out problems 'online' [I'm assuming that this would be an internet mailing list] where verification is perhaps more difficult than in 'real life'?

Delightful as the idea of sentencing the recalcitrant dom to service is, I don't think I approve of mixing BDSM and enforced punishment in that way. I'd also be interested to know what the 'training' was and whether it worked, and how it was proven to have worked [I know I'm asking for more of a burden of proof than government institutions have to provide :)].

I don't know what the crime was in the situation you mention, but if it was a crime against a person in a BDSM context - how can the moderators be sure that that person is 'safe' after the sentence? Could it provide a false sense of security?

As for contacting police if crimes are committed .... what sort of crimes are we talking about? My personal view - which I'm sure many will disagree with, perhaps rightly - is that we DON'T have a responsibility to report every crime to the police. Child abuse, yes. Car parking violations - perhaps not. Don't we all know people who have committed minor crimes - do we inform on all of them? I don't think all crimes should be reported, and I think there would need to be some clarity on what crimes should be reported, and to which agencies they should be reported.

Part of my worry is that even with a proper justice system, with trained professionals, trial by jury, human rights, etc, it's difficult to get real justice. I imagine it would be even more difficult in the scenario you are describing.

6 singed_phoenix     2020-10-16 14:31

In my naive opinion, a commnity that can't even agree on what main course should be served at a local munch has no hope of ever coming together to create a tribunal court to punish "offenders." At least, imo, not on any large scale. It could work with small groups of people--communal type arrangements in which everyone agrees to certain rules of behavior and accepts the leaders as the leaders. Ok, a cult. Break out the secret decoder rings and the passwords and the secret handshake manual and the initiation rituals.

Most SMers (in my experience) don't belong to cults of other SMers because Owners want to make their own rules. They are dominant precisely because they want to be the ones in charge. i don't think too many of them are going to submit to the authority of some quasi-arbitrarily-selected leader or tribunal panel.

Who will police the police? Who will judge the judge and who will select the jury? By what standards?

i think self-policing is also a crock. If it happens at all, it happens through the rumor mill and one can never be sure about who, if anyone, is at fault. Getting more busy-bodies in on the game of trying to root out the truth will only cause a bigger circus and add to the politics and petty differences that often tear groups apart.

Also, one person's nightmare is another person's wet dream which brings us back to what kinds of "standards" could actually be set as universal.

Even if people do behave dishonorably, lots of people are so desperate for partners that it doesn't matter to them that a certain person's past is littered with the emotional remains of people who have been involved with them. Aside from being impossible to implement on a large scale, such judgement panels would be completely ineffective in punishing anyone by making it difficult or impossible for them to find partners. And as ultraviolet pointed out, no one can be "forced" into consensual servitude. Oxymoron. In my opinion, the myth of the SM community policing itself is just that: a myth. It's too big, too diverse. People need to understand that ultimately, their own safety is in their own hands. i think it could be misleading and dangerous to imply that a group self-polices.

A list might work if someone thinks that a real crime is committed--in order to help someone to determine if a real crime has been committed and to provide support and resources. But that is as far as i think it could go. That would be nice. Not a group to condemn or judge, but more of a support group for victims of real crimes or people who are having trouble determining if they are in fact a victim. People who need advice.

i just can't imagine the SM community as a whole taking a tribunal seriously. i think they should start to try and agree on things that are less emotionally charged--like whether to serve beef or chicken on Tuesday.

7 Kinky Lawyer     2020-10-16 16:38

I think my thoughts pretty much echo those of other posters thus far. There are so many questions and so much downside risk, that I sincerely believe the concept should be dismissed out of hand. I will try not to be overly repetitive of what has already been well said by others but my thoughts:

1. a group of local leaders created a BDSM "tribunal."
I first question who these "local leaders" are. I don't want to offend anyone, but in my experience the "local leaders" of bdsm groups have not always been exactly my idea of who I would want passing judgment. While their intentions may be admirable, I have concerns about some of the self professed "leaders" in the bdsm community. Too often they have allowed themselves to become so wrapped up in the bdsm community and subculture that they have (to put it gently) sometimes slipped a little far from reality. I had the opportunity the other day to read a personal website of a "leader" and I'm sure that my mouth must have gaped a little a I continued to read about this guy's online fantasy world, how he became a "LORD", how the title was bestowed, etc., etc. You want to gently whisper in the ear of someone like this "Hey - look quick - a sliver of reality is floating by - reach out and grab it before it gets away". Can this characterization be applied universally to be who provide leadership in the bdsm world? OF COURSE NOT. But it is prevalent enough to make one want to take a long hard look at the "leaders" who migh populate such a tribunal.

2. There is now discussion of setting up a list where people may report rumors and moderators will attempt to get first-person accounts. Its purpose is to sort out rumors from realities

    Rumours are almost by definition devoid of reality. Otherwise they would be called facts. How truly scary to have a group condoning the gathering of potentially damaging information - most of which is by its nature not really susceptible of being proven or disproven. Sounds like the McCarthy days when anyone could accuse you of being a communist or a sympathizer and you found yourself in front of a tribunal trying to prove a negative - virtually impossible.

3. if the moderator (who is an attorney and thus an officer of the court) feels a crime was committed he will report the criminal to the police.

    I have difficulty understanding why anyone would want to expose themselves to that kind of incredible liability. Please be sure to give my card to anyone that is reported to the police and the charges turn out to be false, malicious or unprovable. I will take all of these case and fund my retirement quite nicely from this hypothetical attorney's malpractice insurance company. All kidding aside, one would have to be so very careful in this regard, and again, these "offenses" are hard to prove. The obvious question I think has already been raised - why would it take a tribunal or a moderator to go to the police instead of the "victim" her/himself?

4. How do you feel about SMers policing ourselves in general? We already know a lot of con artists, scamsters, and sociopathic liars are operating in our midst. Can we stop them? Should we try? What can or should we do?

  While there are analogies of groups policing themselves, the reasons it works is that there is some leverage. There are ecclesiastical courts, groups such as the masons have their own rules and quasi court procedures, but in all of these there is the underlying sanction of being kicked out. We don't have anything like that available, and therefore no clout. Any tribunal of any kind can only work if it can enforce its decisions and rules. Imagine going to court for a crime and the sentence being - 1 year in jail - but only if you want to go. The bdsm community is not cohesive enough to have any clout - erego no tribunal can work.

Finally it has been suggested that there be some rumour filtering organization (see above) with the result being that the allegations if deemed adequately substantiated, be disseminated throughout the bdsm community. Good grief! Again look at the quagmire. Based on some surely flawed process you try to brand someone as undesirable in the whole community. Anyone even remotely participating in something like that is leaving themselves wide open, at least potentially, to being sued for defamation.

Conclusion? I don't think there is any way to make a tribunal like this work, or to effectively self-police the bdsm community.

The Kinky Lawyer (who WILL NEVER be anywhere near the contemplated tribunal)

8 TooLoose     2020-10-16 16:48

>> We already know a lot of con artists, scamsters, and sociopathic liars are operating in our midst. Can we stop them? Should we try? What can or should we do?

I think there are 3 separate objectives to that "BDSM police list" idea. Pls. correct me if I misunderstood.

1- Serve as a clearinghouse of "web-crap" vs. "truth"

2- Serve as an arbitrer of "good" vs. "bad" behaviours (aka "morals police")

3- Serve as a referal to relevant law enforcement organizations.

Here's my take on each of these ideas:

1- Serve as a clearinghouse of "web-crap" vs. "truth"

You can't protect people from themselves. Crooks will always come up with some new twist, and fools will always believe them. What _can_ be done is educate people who are capable of learning. A book such as "Surviving the Internet for Idiots" would be good for the newbies to the BDSM online world as well as vanilla newbies. ("If he asks you for your pic, your bra size or your address just say no", "If she gives you her pic, her bra size and her address right after she says 'I'm new here' then it's a honey trap")

There may already be web-scam newsgroups or forums, I don't know, I haven't searched.

As far as BDSM specific "web-crap", I think a FAQ of scams might be a good addition to this forum.

2- Serve as an arbitrer of "good" vs. "bad" behaviours (aka "morals police")

All manner of "morals police" institutions have been established over the milllenia. None of them have ever worked as intended. If a particular local group wants to set up their own internal play-rules, like some kind of "BDSM Masons" that's their own prerogative. Any kind of world-wide set of rules beyond "SSC" is going to be a big flop.

3- Serve as a referal to relevant law enforcement organizations.

The obstacle here is that the web is world-wide. Which means that every word written on the web is in violation of multiple laws in multiple countries. Filtering out which words are in violation in which countries is going to be a massive job. In some countries it is illegal for a citizen group to monitor and report electronic communications, so the first order of business would be to report yourselves to countries like Mexico, Saudi, and North Korea and shut yourselves down <vbg>

Most law enforcement agencies do _not_ want third party accusations, they want the real goods from the agrieved victims. The usual solution in non-BDSM web venues is to refer the agrieved parties to their local law enforcement organization.

What I do personally is keep an eye out for newbies making dumb mistakes (using real names on IM addy's, attaching non-text documents to email, giving out where they live, etc.) advise chat room ops when an obvious scam is in progress, and send the newbies along to "mentoring forums" (such as this one) for education.

Basically, the folks who want to protect newbies with a "morals police" have their hearts in the right place, they just need to be a little more practical in their solutions.

TooLoose :-)

9 ckim25     2020-10-16 17:31

<blowing off keyboard>

Even i cannot stay clear of this one. <g>

After reading the part of rumors i, for some reason, immediately thought about all the virus warnings, email hoaxes and crap that i used to get in my email when i first got a computer and was dumb and naive enough to believe everything i read. Almost everything i read that sounded unbelievable... usually was. But that is no different from how it is with everyday life. Rumors are just that. Rumors.... Usually there are only 2 people that know the complete truth anyway.

For some reason I'm thinking of tabloid magazines and Entertainment tonight stepping in to set the story straight.... or are they?
It all comes back to doing your own research on someone before giving them the key to your door... or heck...imagine your soul. (which seems to happen faster than the door)

As far as reporting a crime.. HA!
The huge thing that I learned when discovering myself as a sub was that EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE is SO different. Well, it might be a crime to someone else, but to the accused... was it really? i'm sure the words.. "oh I was simply trying to push so and so's limits".. would be heard more than once.
And whose to say that wasn't the case? Some 6 week online crash course fantasy sub who chickened out when things got deeper than she/he bargained for?

There are already MANY sites out there that give warnings and red flags...things to look for. You can only check so far.

Too many lives could be ruined too easily. As with some inmates sitting in jail now. Just ask any of them. They are ALL innocent. (though some actually are)

i'm sure to protect themselves from appearing to be in the wrong someone wouldn't hesitate to lie lie lie anyway. Surely this doesn't happen now. (as if)

i have my own brain for such occasions... i think i'll use it.

Pssst did ya'll hear about the Dom who hangs the pictures and underwear of past subs on his wall... They say he lures the subs with offering nothing but 24/7 pleasure and happiness for a lifetime ... watch out for this one!.. He's a strange one... (or is he?)
<stepping down>

10 firebaby     2020-10-16 19:52

When i saw the subject line i thought it was going to be a discussion of a particular role-playing scenario. i'll make my response short and sweet: Ditto to the previous 7 responses.

Now, about the uniform and cuffs ...?


11 ultraviolet     2020-10-16 20:00

TooLoose, I agree that educating newbies (and sometimes longtime SMers as well) can be a lot more beneficial than trying to punish offenders. If people can be made aware of scams, then there will be fewer victims. Calling in the law can also cause a lot of complications, and bring a lot of negative attention to our lifestyle. But if you can't call the law (and a bdsm tribunal is not even an option), what can somebody who has experienced bdsm abuse do?

12 rabidchihauhau     2020-10-16 20:17

No matter how you set it up, it will eventually and inevitably become a political powertrip for someone(s) and quickly descend into the muck and mire of advancing that someone's agenda.

That agenda will usually prove out to be more power mongering and or money, and once it begins to involve money, there's no stopping the monster it will become.

13 GloriaBrame     2020-10-16 20:29

<< I think a FAQ of scams might be a good addition to this forum.>>

OOOOOH!!!! What a great idea, TooLoose!!!

Maybe we (the board members) could do one together?

14 Jude the Obscure     2020-10-16 22:23

Somehow the images I get of a tribunal are diametrically opposed to each other:

On the one hand, there is a team of teachers looking solemnly and speaking sternly to a quaking kid who's been "bad";

on the other hand, we have the Inquisition, or Senator Joe McCarthy in the 1950's.

The first is merely amusing; the second frightening (unless it fits into a scene) =8^O !


15 TooLoose     2020-10-16 23:44

ultraviolet said:

>> ... But if you can't call the law (and a bdsm tribunal is not even an option), what can somebody who has experienced bdsm abuse do?

Depends on the abuse. First I would recommend calling a "kink aware" lawyer in the relevant geographic location to be absolutely sure that calling the local cops is not an option. If criminal proceedings are not an option, then civil lawsuits can be explored. If that is not an option then it's time to head on down to the local rape crisis center to see what form of solutions they can recommend. (Might be a good idea to _start_ at a rape crisis center)

The fundamental problem is that every case is going to be completely different from every other, so there is no way that any central website can address all cases. The best that can be done is to set up a clearing-house that directs people to their local resources. However, having worked at a number of "crisis centers" over the years, I can tell you that they take a _huge_ amount of work to set up and maintain.

There are a handful of web based rape clearinghouses, maybe what can be done is to liaison with them and act as a BDSM resource for _them_, instead of trying to duplicate most of what they already do.

Whadya think?

TooLoose :-

16 TooLoose     2020-10-16 23:45

Gloria said:

<< << I think a FAQ of scams might be a good addition to this forum.>>

<< Maybe we (the board members) could do one together?

Ok, here's my first contribution (maybe a new thread would be in order?)

Scam #238 aka "The Honey Pot"


- You meet a new person online, and they tell you they are brand new to [insert whatever kink they mention] and ask you for advice.

- In the very first email this person sends you their picture, as well as personal information. The person turns out to be extremely attractive.


- In the next few emails this person confides that they are not quite of legal age, or just barely of legal age. This person asks you for pictures to illustrate how to do [insert whatever kink they mention] or for instructions.


- You get legal documents from a lawyer indicating that this person is really a minor, and that you will be reported to the police for corruption of a minor, interstate transmission of pornographic materials to a minor, emotional distress, and a bunch of other crimes. If you are willing to pay restitution, they will drop all the charges.


- You are the victim of blackmail. There really is a minor at the other end of the email, but the minors' parents and the lawyer have been running this scam for years and getting quite rich off it.


- If somebody tries to send you their pic online; just say no. If they want to send it to you the very first time you meet; run as fast as you can.

- Never send pictures or instructions relating to any form of kink to anyone for any reason. If you are crazy enough to break this rule then put the material on some "adult-gated" repository.

- Never put your real name, address, city, state, phone number, place of employment or any other personal information anywhere on your computer, especially if you are on DSL, ISDN, cable or T1 connection to the web. If you are crazy enough to break this rule then go to school and get a degree in internet security, and invest a few grand in high-quality firewalls.

- Never put your real name, address, city, state, phone number, place of employment or any other personal information on any kind of email, chat room profile, instant messenger profile, nickname or handle. If you are crazy enough to break this rule then make sure you have a good attorney in the family.

TooLoose :-)

17 GloriaBrame     2020-10-17 02:41


My goodness. Have you personally run into this scam or is it something you heard about from a friend? It's the first time I've heard of this. Have others here discovered con artists running this pedophiliac "honeypot" scam (or some variation thereof) on kinky people?

BTW, I would like to think that the first time someone told you they were a minor, you'd immediately end the correspondence. Anyone who corresponds about sexual matters with minors on-line--even if you're just trying to be "helpful" or "compassionate"--is risking disastrous consequences. You may think you're doing them a favor but what you're doing is opening the door to ruining your own life. Even I, a credentialed clinical sexologist, will not work with minors unless I first obtain permission from their parents. This is just a practical reality in 2002 when the line between befriending kids and corrupting kids seems to be completely blurred in the courts of public opinion.

If any of you encounter a minor (which means under 18 in most states) in need of advice, send them instead to sex-positive sites where they can learn from experts in youth outreach. One of my favorites for the younger set is:


TooLoose, all I can say is I hope the above never happened (and never will!) to you. Yeeeks.

18 Kinky Lawyer     2020-10-17 07:17

I would certainly have to agree with Gloria on this one. I can see someone falling afoul of a scam like this is if they were not advised that the person is a minor, but being told up front that "they are not quite of legal age" is the poison in this whole interchange. As Gloria indicated, 18 is legal age in most states - when I help set up bdsm groups, etc., I always advise age 21 as the magic number. Why? Because while there is often not a lot of difference in appearance, demeanor and expression between a seventeen year old and an eighteen year old, it is usually a lot easier to distinguish between 17 and 21. Sorry to all those chomping at the bit folks between 18 and 20, but as you've been told before, life sucks! BTW, for those who are concerned about the more technical aspects of this, while it is technically a crime to transmit any obscene material (and that includes specifically any bdsm related pictures or literature) your likelihood of running into trouble is extremely small as long as they are personal exchanges between consenting adults. Law enforcement just has too much other stuff to worry about. Throw a minor into the equation though and all bets are off. Prosecution can and generally will occur on the basis of a single incident of distributing pornography - especially something as perverted and disgusting as "bondage" or "sado-masochism" (hmmm - my lady didn't use those exact terms when I used the cane this morning) to a minor.
Finally, one other defense (in the event someone really is haples enough to get involved in this mess) is the state bar in any and all states in which the lawyer invovled is licensed to practice. In most states that I am familiar with, it is an ethical violation to attempt to use the threat of criminal prosecution to gain an advantage in a civil matter. So, even if you can't establish outright extortion, you can sure distract this guy when he starts getting communication from a grievance or disciplinary proceeding. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet, but it can sure make the whole thing a lot less fun for the other side.

The Kinky Lawyer (switch in dom mode this week who loves early morning canings)

19 TooLoose     2020-10-17 16:28

Gloria said:

>> ... My goodness. Have you personally run into this scam or is it something you heard about from a friend?

Depends on where I hang out :-) On the "free-fire" chat rooms (ones without password or Adult Check) I'm approached about once a week by an _obvious_ honey pot. Another two or three a week I'm just real suspicious about so I pass on those just cuz. I've _heard_ of a number of people falling for the scam, complaining to the operators and what not, but I have no first-hand accounts.

On the password protected or adult-gated venues I've _never_ hit a honey pot.

>> ... BTW, I would like to think that the first time someone told you they were a minor, you'd immediately end the correspondence.

Oh yeah :-) I end it if I'm just a little unclear about their _real_ age just from the way they write. Hardly anybody reveals their real age anyway, so I prefer to err on the side of caution.

I know I'm being paranoid, but I've met Jennifer Aniston 4 times, Buffy 6 times, Maddona twice and even got proposioned by the Pope himself (er... that would be Himself cuz He's the Pope, but he said he's a sub, so that should be lower case himself, ... I think ... <vbg>).
'Course, if I get a pic of a gorgeous blonde teeny-bopper I don't care _what_, I'm outta there. Anybody who sends me their pic is automatically uploaded to my "politely ignore" list, even if it _is_ the real Buffy :-)

I've got so many unrequested pics of gorgeous young gals that I'm about ready to change my nic and start all over again. (hmmm.... how about "TooTightOhMy" ? :-)

>> ... TooLoose, all I can say is I hope the above never happened (and never will!) to you.

thanx Gloria, my sub and I are super careful :-) You should take a walk on the wild side of the web one of these days just for kicks. It's _way_ crazy and _way_ dangerous out there :-( Just be sure to use a trapdoor account :-)

TooLoose :-)
p.s. A trapdoor is an account in the name of an agent or security firm used by the Hollywood crowd to avoid harrasment by stalkers, crackers and other such invertrebrates.

20 eyes     2020-10-17 18:03

oh, i think this is a bad idea. Because of the vast difference in how BDSm'ers feel about certain things, we could end up with some holier-than-thou person who chooses to judge.

i was in a BDSM chat room a few weeks ago and was absolutely disgusted by how the host acted. a lady came in asking questions about the lifestyle, cause her boyfriend has admitted he is a sadist. Well, the host went on and on about he was a sick, twisted individual, and how the lady should quickly get herself out of the situation before she got herself killed.

i was appalled that this "host" was so incredibly narrow-minded, and yes i will say it, an IDIOT! Maybe she isn't into S/M, but obviously there is this whole line of "My kink is fine, yours is wrong!". This kind of judging is too scary.

Plus, i can just see the situation: a dominant whips his/her submissive as may be a usual thing, he/she isn't the most upstanding sub and decides to "teach the Dom lesson", and decides to "report the dominant for abuse". If that ended up getting reported to the police, it wouldn't matter if it was a falsehood, there would still be a record. The poor dominant would be labled.

Lastly (as if i haven't already said enough <eg>), Can you imagine being the judge of something like that? EEK! Every BDSM relationship is different. Yes there are wannabes, predators, and losers out there who are in it for their own amusement, but for those who are truly Dominant or submissive, this is our life. We have our own ideas, desires, etc. As long as it belongs in the credo of Safe, Sane, and Consensual, the only people that should know about it, are those involved. If it gets outside that realm, . . . .

(and lets not debate what makes anything Safe, Sane, and Consensual) too many variables;)

eyes (on too much sugar today)

21 writermol     2020-10-18 11:57

Various versions of this idea have floated through the community as long as I can remember. Usually after someone cries "we must protect the subs from abusers!" In fact, from what I've observed other than the occaisonal sociopath mascarading themselves in leather, the abusers are no more common in our community than one finds in the rest of the world. A dangerous sociopath can be handled by the cops, its really not a matter of BDSM its a criminal situation. The other so-called abuse complaints that I hear, when checked out are most often the results of 1) poor communication, 2)ignorance, 3) unrealistic expectations, or 4) lack of ethics. Only number 4 can really be considered deliberate "abuse". The way to help reduce of of these problems is not be a "tribunal" but by education. Personally I wish there were a way to give a quick transplant of common sense. I do think a mediation service might be useful in resolving issues, or a rumor control service, but a court is just another grandeous, but silly overreaching into situations that usually turnout to be "he said/she said" situations.

22 Thorn4MyRose     2020-10-19 18:43

(General posting)

I've always been an advocate of sharing good information as a means of helping people to make 'informed choices', but the balance to that is that, in an adult environment, personal responsibility in applying any such information is the salient standard. It's not *my* responsibility to 'police' any other adult's personal choices. It certainly wouldn't impress the vanilla world-at-large in the least if I did. Why would anyone else think their doing so would? (Unless, as has been pointed out, there's a hidden agenda, possibly political, in doing so.)

For what it's worth. ;-)

Be safe,


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Dr. Gloria Glickstein Brame

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