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1 | GloriaBrame | 2020-04-20 22:40 | |
If you've been keeping up with the news on the US BDSM communities, you probably know that there's now a concerted effort on the part of religious extremists to convince hotels not to host BDSM events. They succeeded in forcing one event to move, and recently convinced the Baptist Church to boycott hotels that host BDSM events. There have also been some busts of clubs around the country, suggesting that local law agencies are targeting BDSM groups. Naturally, everyone's upset about about the harassment and folks are trying to rally support for events and clubs with letter campaigns and more. Usually, I try to do my part when these kinds of things happen. This time, though, I haven't had much to say on the issue, and I finally realized why. As much as it aggravates me that these dangerous dimwits are hounding us, I somehow can't muster my usual outrage because what they are attacking, specifically, is that BDSM is going on in public places. I suppose they'd come after us no matter what we were doing, but a part of me feels that we have supplied them with the ammunition on this one. They have infiltrated events and gone back with unflattering (to put it mildly) descriptions of what goes on in SM play-spaces. I adamantly support our right to *assemble* and our free speech rights, but it's hard for me to defend our right to have open dungeons, SM demos, and massive play-parties. What would be the vanilla equivalent of using a hotel ballroom as a dungeon--using the ballroom for group fornication? I know that as a bona fide pervert I'd be horrified if I was at a hotel filled with vanilla people and found out they had blow-job rooms with rows of girls on their knees. (The kneeling part is ok, it's the blow-jobs that'd unnerve me *eg*) BUT SERIOUSLY, FOLKS.... Is the right to play in public worth defending? What do you think? What would happen if we gave an SM event and there wasn't a lick of nudity or playing involved? (Would anyone even show up?) Or does the fact that we rent these spaces, and lock out minors and anyone who doesn't explicitly consent (usually signing legal statements before entering), mean that we have the right to do what we want there? Glory |
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2 | success0123 | 2020-04-21 03:32 | |
...O,o.... This should be interesting... As a general rule of thumb, I dont have a problem with what people do, as long as they do it behind closed doors, or in a relatively secure location... This goes for any public display, from kissing and on.... |
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3 | Thorn4MyRose | 2020-04-21 08:42 | |
(General Posting) My personal 'bottom line up front' is that, in my opinion (IMO): If the public venue isn't specific and restricted to BDSM activities, then no such 'right' exists (nor is it even productive in many cases). Even if conducted ethically and legally, the fact that others might be unintentionally exposed (and therefore subjected) to any degree of kink without their prior consent makes it something which goes against a core point that we often use in our explanation as to why this way of livng isn't 'abuse'. For what it's worth. :-) |
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4 | SteelSkys | 2020-04-21 09:21 | |
I went to my first play party this past January. There was one couple I did enjoy watching. So many want to be seen... In chat rooms I've seen people comment to others, "you aren't REAL
because no one has seen you play" or because "you never attend
public activities"... Steel PS |
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5 | Trinity | 2020-04-21 13:37 | |
>> you aren't REAL because no one has seen you play" or because "you never attend public activities" << I've often found the opposite. "You run off to these little gatherings, you strut your stuff, but you're not a 'real' dom", or the idea that somehow, because I enjoy public play, that I can't or won't also make intimate private commitments, which is bollocks. Personally I have a real liking for doing things like BDSM in more "public" venues. It may be something like a fetish in my case, though. As a teen I can remember going to (vanilla) parties where folks flirted in very physical ways, and feeling very attracted by the sexual energy that was just sort of... freely floating around. No, there wasn't any intercourse of any sort... but just seeing people around me, unafraid to be sexual and unafraid to express it in front of other people, really both made me feel good and aroused me. When I discovered public play, it felt very much the same -- people who didn't feel that they could only express their sexuality behind closed doors. I felt very at home, because in the intervening years I'd missed that sexual sort of openness very much. I felt thrilled to find it again. This is probably going to sound weird to many, but I feel that although sometimes I want to express my sexuality in private, with no one other than the partner(s) I have chosen to share intimacy with, sometimes I want to express it more openly. Some Intercourse of whatever form would fit into the first category, I think -- I've wondered what it would be like to have sex in quasi-public, but don't know that I'd *really* want to. BDSM polay would sometimes as well, when I feel like keeping it intimate and secret between me and those I love. Sometimes, though, even if I am only publicly playing with the aforementioned long-term partners, I want to play in an open setting with others there. I don't want to express my sexuality in front of just anyone, but people who will understand, who won't judge, who will find my sexuality exciting and interesting. Most people like keeping their sexuality, in most of its forms, behind closed doors. I don't really feel this way. Some of it is private, certainly... but not all of it is. Sexuality, for me personally, is not *inherently* private. The chance to occasionally do some things in front of others is something I feel I want very much, maybe even need. I can't imagine someone saying to me "The Gods have deemed that you can never have this any more; it's officially inappropriate in this culture. Go home and shut the door like you're supposed to." I'd go bonkers if truly prevented from ever having the choice to play in front of other people, I think. But does this strong desire to play in public mean I have the *right* to do it? The desire itself surely doesn't. After all, if I owned property, had adequate space and adequate soundproofing, I could just invite some friends over to my house and we could play. Or head to their house, rather than renting some public space to do it in. Mnay people do host parties on private property, after all. Fetishes alone don't make laws or imply legal rights. *grin* But I do think that if a hotel *agrees* to let us flog each other in the ballroom, provided we've taken the adequate precautions to keep it an adults-only event, we should be allowed to. If someone deems it OK to rent us the space for this purpose -- and some of these hotels have a long tradition of renting space to pervs -- I think it's OK. If they decide it's not, for whatever reason, well, tough for us. I'd fight for our right to do this only because the hotels are generally OK with it, and often have hosted events for us in the past. I'd say to them, "Hey, you had no problem with this before CWA started yelling -- why back down now?" Because to me, some of these hotels have shown, by hosting events many times in the past, that they have no problem with us. If they had one in the first place, that would be fine with me, as it's their property to rent as they see fit. But if all that's stopping them is fear of fundamentalism, I find that tacky -- even though I do agree that the hotels have the right to tell us to go away for any reason. |
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6 | firemastersbaby | 2020-04-21 14:59 | |
i'm with you, Steel ... i enjoy watching people play, and i don't mind being watched. However, i do *not* like being viewed as entertainment. Whenever Master and i play, it's an intensely personal thing. So while we play occasionally with small groups of friends, we never repeated the mistake (for us) of playing among kinky acquaintances (i.e., a group play party). i like sharing the experience, the highly charged interplay between us; and i appreciate and value the people who feel they can share their experience with us. Anyway, on with the topic. i can't help but think it's naive for anyone to expect that they'll be left alone when they're doing something that so many people find offensive (and especially when the opposition is so vocal). i don't think it's right, but it's realistic to expect that if you wave a flag, someone will take up the cause against you. Being an American doesn't mean that you have the right to expect everyone to respect and accept you and your choices; it *does* mean that you have the right to stand up for them, and that's pretty much what this boils down to, i think. But as in any battle, there will be sacrifice and loss. For the record, my personal battle will be for my right to live as i choose. i'll fight that battle to the end. But i can't in any conscience consider it my battle to fight for the right to play in public (or in third-party rented spaces), any more than it would be my battle to fight for strip joints downtown. i don't like having to hide it, and i'll even fight for the chance to not have to appear ashamed of it by hiding it. But i think that's a different issue than the one you raised. i'm at a terrible loss for words, and i really don't think i've explained myself well, but that's the best i can do right now. Peace |
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7 | Trinity | 2020-04-21 21:51 | |
>> i can't help but think it's naive for anyone to expect that they'll be left alone when they're doing something that so many people find offensive << Yeah... in even affirming that yes, we do BDSM and we're proud of it, we know and acceopt, on some level, that some will reject us. It's just a part of the territory. So those of us who, like me, enjoy public play know, and on some level accept, that *someone* isn't gonna be happy with us hitting each other on public property, and gonna raise a ruckus. That just comes with the package, as much as we might not like it. Is is indeed naive to say "Hey, you can't do that!" as though these groups had no right, or reason, to protest. However, I do think those of us who do this have a right to make a case, to argue that there's no real reason for people's upset here. We put things back where we found 'em. We leave the place clean. We don't give people trouble: "It's been here (at Ramada) for three years with absolutely no -- Group with unconventional tastes draws ire over gathering We don't insist that the world watch us do our thing. That doesn't mean the bull we've waved the flag in front of will cease to charge, or that we ought not to expect it to. But we can aim our spears at it, too. If the staff of the Ramada and other hotels don't have a problem. I think that says something. |
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8 | memneth | 2020-04-22 03:40 | |
Well now. After having just read this thread in Atlanta at the Sanctuary last night and after a conversation with Sir and after thinking about it for several hours before starting to Greenville and considering it on the way for three more hours (gotta love those night contruction crews, working on Sundays.....isn't there a commandement in some book against that somewhere?) I, for a change, have an opinion. Interestingly enough it puts me on the other side of the fence of both Gloria and Thorn. DAMN RIGHT WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO HOST OUR EVENTS SEMINARS AND PARTY's!!!! Ok I feel bettr know. Tell you what I am wiling to trade though. I'll support no events, seminars, conferences etc, when I am no longer randomly subjected to having organized religion shoved down my throat, from Ja-hov-ahs witnesses pulling up to my house on bicycles to door to door "ministy" from those trying to save me, because they seem to think that they know whats best for EVERYONE in the whole damn country and are going to going to try and force me to accept it whether I want to or not, or believe, in whole or in part as they do. Somebody correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure that I can count on that) but didn't our founding fathers leave England, so that they could live, believe AND worship as they wanted to??? When did we sell that small point out? I have about as much use for organized religion as I do for a case of the shits: Both stink and are irritating. Organized religion has been used since the begining of time to control the masses, based on the interruptation of the politial powers that be at any given time. I am willing to give up our business spaces and the public spaces that we have a about the same time that I can get a drink on Sunday across the country, when the (fill in the blank) convention no longer holds THEIR events in hotels, when the likes of Jim Baker, Pat Robinson, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, the CWA, and the AFA decide to shut up and worship their god ( the dollar, tax free) without ADVERTENTLY subjecting me and others like me to their hat full of hoo hoo. I mean damn, if we give up our spaces and our events because we don't want to accidently exspose some poor innocent person, perhaps we should also consider banning books on say, alternative sexuality and the way its practiced from Barnes and Nobles and other book sellers, because hey, a kid could come along and pick one up off the shelf. No way, no how, un uh, nada, nope. Justin Medlin |
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9 | SteelSkys | 2020-04-22 06:53 | |
<<I, for a change, have an opinion.>> Anyone ever wonder WHY someone would name a new born baby, (or even a frog) "ORAL"? |
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10 | firemastersbaby | 2020-04-22 11:04 | |
i don't really think this particular issue is one of religion vs. alternate sexuality. i think at its core it's an issue of money, pure and simple. The hotels will do what they consider to be in their best interest, period. And since they are in the business of making a profit (via providing rooms), they will go where the money seems to be. That's the whole story. Remember, he who has the gold makes the rules. The hotels (and others) perceive the "moral majority" to have control of more money than we kinksters and pervs, therefore they will try to keep them happy. Sad but true. i think you have a better chance of winning the battle if you understand what it's *really* about. Peace |
11 | Jewel | 2020-04-22 13:50 | |
Justin, that's the first time I've heard the word 'advertently' used correctly or otherwise, and I like it. But not as much as I like 'hat full of hoo hoo' :-). Steel, yes, I have wondered. I bet he has a brother called Anal Roberts. |
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12 | memneth | 2020-04-22 15:35 | |
fire, Jewel, Justin Medlin |
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13 | cpt.stennes | 2020-04-22 16:22 | |
There is a way to discourage those who would interfere with events and that is to sue them. I have mentioned this before and it is a well settled right of action. It is called "Interference with Advantageous Relations". Events attract vendors and cost money. If someone interferes with that sort of activity, they can be sued. Or enjoined. Enjoined means, in this context, that a court will prevent them, by order, from continuing to attempt to prevent an activity. Of course, you need a plaintiff, ordinarily this will be the organization promoting the event. So, all of this is pretty straightforward. There is also a First Amendment argument but that should be, I think, subordinate to the pecuniary argument. All that said, NCSF could do this providing, I think , that a local lawyer or one brought in, via methods too esoteric to be explained here, would consent to do the work. What is NCSF doing about this? I would be willing to provide the representation given the necessary prerequisites. I think that one sucessful cause celebre would end the problem. So let me know. Regards, F. |
14 | firemastersbaby | 2020-04-22 21:18 | |
i wholly understand your moral indignation, Justin, really i do. i won't even discuss my views on religion here (or anywhere, for that matter) because that always sparks disbelief and then argument, and i just don't feel the need to expend energy on a useless exercise. i'm not old yet, but i *am* old enough to not want to rush the process by wielding a sword against every injustice i see. i did that for a couple of decades in my youth, and it wore me out. My post was quite possibly off topic because my point was to describe the landscape, not to comment on its beauty or ugliness. Do i think it's right for hotel chains to deny their services to BDSMers? No. Do i think it's understandable (i.e., can i see their point of view)? Yes i can. Remember, the decisions people (and corporations) make about such things are based on their *perceptions* of what's in their best interest. So it always pays, in my experience, to understand their perceptions, and influence them through their priorities. They don't care, as a corporation, what we do. All they care about is staying on top of the financial game. You have to show them that making morally based decisions (as dictated by any group) is *not* the way to achieve their goals. To kill any prey, you have to use effective ammo. Period. End of story, and probably the end of my input on this topic. Peace |
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15 | Keeper's Slave | 2020-04-25 15:27 | |
go for it Captain!!!!! Get um! |
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16 | ckim25 | 2020-04-25 17:25 | |
hmmmm What if the convention was held at a lone hotel, one that doesn't see much business, who may only fill 10 out of their 100 rooms for a couple of hours on any given weekend. Would the churches be yelling out then? Who would there be to boycott? Who would lose money? I'd bet a lot that there wouldn't be much said except the little hotel telling the churches to kiss their ass. I agree with Fire and Justin.. it's a money thing. The churches seem to find ways to threaten and or hurt businesses in one way.. money. They don't find a law, forbidding such a thing, but because THEY say their God says BAD BAD BAD... whose God? My God? Your God? No, THEIR God.... Now (taking a deep breath)... Do I want to be able to take my son on
a vacation, stay in a hotel and not pass by something I may end up
having to explain? Sure... I seem to ride along the fences on something like this and usually just say it all depends on the situation. I think there's a time and place for meetings, gatherings and then there's another time and place for playing. HOWEVER, I'm a freedom/rights fighter so to speak and I don't think I can fight one battle without fighting for another fairly, regardless of what it is. But then, I do have a limit here as well... children. I'll always protect the children first. To answer the question, Personally at this point I think if it's a gathering for information, speeches, teachings (without demonstrations) then yes, I would fight this battle. But if it goes further than that, I have to say no. I don't think I would. I can't agree that a right is a right is a right. At some point there has to be limits to that. (IMO) ~Chris |
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17 | Trinity | 2020-04-26 09:19 | |
Folks -- I don't know about BMSL, but at BR, the hotels' rooms are occupied solely by pervs. The hotel is reserved for people attending the convention. I think one BR hatel had its nightclub open to the public/its usual clientele. I'd be willing to bet, though, that that clientele was informed what would be going on. Unless BMSL is different than this (and please give me a citation or personal experience if it is), there's no chance of Aunt Chloe's family vacation getting interrupted by screams, or of kids wandering into the dungeons. Addendum -- from an NCSF press release/sample letter to the Missouri senators: There will be no families or children at the hotel during this event,
and only adults (twenty-one What'd I tell ya? No kids to worry about... no Aunt Agnes. |
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18 | Jhcbiinoc | 2020-04-26 21:03 | |
>I am willing to give up our business spaces and the public spaces that we have a about the same time that I can get a drink on Sunday across the country, when the (fill in the blank) convention no longer holds THEIR events in hotels, when the likes of Jim Baker, Pat Robinson, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, the CWA, and the AFA decide to shut up and worship their god ( the dollar, tax free) without ADVERTENTLY subjecting me and others like me to their hat full of hoo hoo.< I agree with you there; they have the right to rent the same spaces to spread their intolerance and hate (and if you want some good examples check out some notes from *their* conventions at the PFAW website's "Right Watch" page.) But if anyone *dared* to suggest that their rights to do so be limited "Help! Help! They're discriminating against our religious rights! Such intolerance!" Can ya'll say "hypocrisy?" |
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19 | Jhcbiinoc | 2020-04-26 21:07 | |
LMAO off at "Oral Roberts and his brother, Anal." |
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20 | GloriaBrame | 2020-04-29 02:14 | |
Hi, everyone. I thought you'd like to hear the final report on Beat Me in St. Louis, especially since it's such a happy one! :-) This is *not* an official announcement but was posted by a source I consider completely reliable, who is affiliated with the event organizers. --GGB ************************************* Beat Me VI recap Very short version: Things went very very well. Excellent in fact. Longer version ZERO restrictions imposed by any outsiders on
our dungeon rules and ZERO protesters total for the weekend at Beat Me.. Nobody who didnt belong there got inside our
portion of the hotel despite The state Attorney General's office did get
involved on Thursday but they The state Health Dept talked to us and sent a
specialist in sexually At our suggestion he spoke with our play
piercing presenter as to the Just as we had told the Mo Atty Gen's office,
we told the Health Dept guy At our request he will be making a
presentation to our members in the The local police came by more than usual
partly for obvious reasons and We had slightly FEWER cancellations than usual. We had only 5 more "no shows" than a year ago. Not one vendor bailed out on Beat Me. Not one presenter bailed out on Beat Me. Obviously we will be doing followup and
continued outreach with the state Between our group website and calls to the
hotel, we have been contacted We are considering doing some interview-type
stuff with the local media We raised some money for NCSF from the
attendees at the attendees own We had a semi-impromtu discussion among about
30 of us on Sunday after There are some issues/suggestions/etc about
security that I wont discuss Thats it for now, I'm going to go try to
sleep for a month. Details next Thanks to each of you who has helped educate
us on these and other issues Our majorly big thanks to NCSF and especially
to Susan Wright for all you If you believe, as I do, that we nationally
are under attack from the *snip* |
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21 | Thorn4MyRose | 2020-04-29 07:17 | |
(General posting) And hence the traits of good planning, responsible conduct and going the extra ten miles to set an excellent example paid off. Kudos to the organizers and supporters. It still doesn't mean there's such a thing as a 'right to play' in public. Just a 'right way' to do it. <g> Be safe, |
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22 | SteelSkys | 2020-04-29 11:51 | |
NCSF Call to Action for Missouri Residents (Posted at the request of and with the permission of, NCSF and St.
Louis Folks, its time to write letters to the Missouri State Senators To look up who your Missouri State senator is, use the following website. http://www.senate.state.mo.us/zipcode/leg_lookup.htm This resolution contains serious misinformation, that is contradicted
by Missouri Senate Resolution No. 1552 (see text below) is being heard
in ACT NOW to protect your rights of privacy and freedom of assembly! SAMPLE LETTER: Dear Senator: As a concerned constituent who believes in privacy rights and freedom
of I urge you to get additional information about the millions of
Americans who St. Louis Leather and Lace is a local educational organization run by Ordinary people will attend this conference -- your constituents,
neighbors I respectfully ask you to vote NO to Senate Resolution No. 1552. Sincerely, Your Name CC: National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, Inc. NCSF faxed a letter protesting this resolution to the following
Senators who The Honorable Bill Kenney, The Honorable David Klarich, The Honorable
Peter ### Missouri State Senate SENATE RESOLUTION NO. 1552 WHEREAS, this is an annual event sponsored by the St. Louis Leather
and Lace WHEREAS, the convention is held at the Howard Johnson Hotel in St.
Louis, WHEREAS, the Howard Johnson Hotels hold themselves out to be a WHEREAS, this event is held in a place in which other hotel guests
may be WHEREAS, event materials promise "dungeon parties" with
"flogging and WHEREAS, sadomasochist behavior of this kind spreads disease; and WHEREAS, engaging in deviant sexual behavior and experimentation is
widely WHEREAS, by allowing the "Beat Me in St. Louis" gathering
to be held at their NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the members of the Missouri
Senate, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the State Department of Health and the
State BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Secretary of the Senate be instructed
to |
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23 | rabidchihauhau | 2020-05-09 14:05 | |
Looks like everything worked out before I had a chance to comment, but I'll still throw in an FYI for those who might be hosting events. I've organized and worked on science fiction conventions and paintball tournaments and have learned over the years that one of the best ways to make inroads with the local community is to hire local police for 'external' security. Even if you have your own in-house, well trained and professional security staff, putting the cops on the perimeter (overtime, they love it) buys you far more than a body and a gun. If you run almost any kind of event professionally, you won't find any better way to spread by word of mouth that your group is 'ok'. |
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