Just as a general question - something i am also interested in...

What do people think of punishing slave by taking money or requiring slave to buy gifts for owner? Sort of like the fines one gets for traffic ticket.

i know there are people out there who enjoy this kind of thing, and have pre-arranged understanding with owner. But i'm not talking about this kind of scenario or money slaves. I'm thinking about just a regular personal slave or service slave. And not somebody who has a lot of money to throw around.

This is not personal matter, just something i am interested in and was wondering what people think.

i have a friend, long time slave of maybe like 18 years. He said that he will not be used for money. He said that when he was looking for owner, some women would punish him by telling him to buy them things or maybe write a check. But he would not do that and if that was unacceptable to them, he left.

This kind of thing seems a little too much like a pro transaction or a business transaction for my liking. So i was wondering what others think. i think i feel the same way my friend does about that. When i buy owner gifts, i want them to be true gifts and not something that is required. Expression of affection, given freely. i want to give joyfully and not because i have to. Otherwise i do not understand how it is gift.

singed_phoenix,

I was dominated at one point in the past by someone who was geographically distant from me. The Domme suggested that since I "enjoy" corporal punishment and since we were distant, it was the best way she could envision truly punishing me. I paid out of a sense of duty and devotion, but really didn't want to. Then again, most people do not want to endure punishment.

My only request was that the money be used for charitable purposes. She agreed and said she would contibute the funds to MADD, but wanted me to send the money to her. I did. The option was discharge. Over time, this Domme and I severed our relationship. I presume the money did indeed go to MADD.

Upon reflection, I now realize that there were many other ways to punish me ... even from a distance. I was going through some tough times (still am), and monetary punishment directly impacted my ability to meet life's obligations. I would suggest that if fiscal punishment is used, the Domme needs to fully understand it's impact on the sub ... fiscally and psychologically. Rather than accepting the money outright, perhaps the Domme could have banked the money for me and controlled its use. I would have found this humiliating (to have another tell me what and where I was authorized to spend my earnings), and it would have been a productive punishment. Any physical punishment for my infraction that the Domme believed was appropriate could have been deferred until we were together.

paul <always growing>

Yes. The life obligations thing. That is what i was trying to say. i think it would be one thing if it meant that a slave would have to do without a luxury item. But it is different if it means slave will have to really go without something essential. Most people i know do not have money to throw around.

One thing that i think would really bother me would be someone profitting off of punishing me. i know punishment is not up to slave, but i always thought it was supposed to teach or deter slave from doing things and not to benefit owner directly. i would hope that my owner would be sad that i had to be punished. But if she was getting $50 each time i screwed up, well that can't be all bad for her. i am glad my owner does not punish this way. i think it would bother me greatly.

Thank you for telling me that luapp. i like to hear what you have to say.

I think it could work in some situations. If the dom is able to make sure the sub does not have financial trouble, I don't see that it's necessarily wrong. The problem is, that I *like* giving gifts. Many people do. It's not nice to associate negative emotions with it.

I agree that taking away the privilege to buy a luxury item makes much more sense as a punishment. I also think that instead of paying a fine in money, one could pay in time, maybe spent volunteering for a good cause. But then again, this has the same problem of associating a negative emotion with a positive act.

i know exactly what you mean, ultraviolet. i love to give gifts too. i love to spoil people and pets. Making giving compulsory takes joy out of giving.

You know, i was just thinking that this is part is much like submission itself. i find joy in submission when i know that it has been my choice in the beginning. But the moment someone tries to dominate me without my consent is the moment those little hairs on the back of my neck start to prickle. This doesn't mean that my owner asks for consent every second of every day, because i gave her global consent a long time ago. So even if i have to do something unpleasant or whatever, it is still consensual.

i don't want to morph this thread too much by going on at length here about consent vs. non-consent so i'll stop here. Just wanted to let you know that i hear what you are saying, ultraviolet --about how giving for you is something you like to do and how being punished by being forced to give gifts would spoil the feelings you associate with it.

Great topic, folks!

There are some people who are turned on by being forced to spend money. Every now and again, one hears about men who fantasize about a woman semi-non-consensually forcing them to hand over their wallets/credit cards; and some folks even have extortion fantasies. And, if money is one of your "SM Toys"--entering play for mutual pleasure and/or control--I don't see a problem with it.

That said, I *do* think it's a problem when it isn't your *fetish* to be used this way. As you guys have pointed out, dominance shouldn't be about the domme exclusively benefitting by something: punishment should also be something that teaches an important lesson to the sub and something which ultimately benefits both partners, not just one.

If I was a sub and a dom/domme asked me to pay a fine when I messed up, I would start wondering if the dom was more interested in my money than my self-improvement, for example. If it was a pattern, or the dom demanded such a heavy fine that it meant I couldn't pay my rent, I would think it was abusive (or at least supremely untrustworthy of the dom to be so careless about my own well-being).

Personally, mixing money & SM just makes me uneasy. At the same time, growing up and living in the Queen of all Capitalist Societies, it's pretty inevitable that money and sex will overlap...whether it's our straight traditions of men paying for women's dinners and buying them presents (often with the implication that Good Gift=Getting Laid) or the prodomme attitudes that dominance comes at a financial price. Money is power. Sex is power. So sex and money and the power implications of both seem intrinsically bound up for an awful lot of people.

And, by the way, it isn't just limited to prodommes: I've heard of male masters who also expect subs to support them or turn over credit cards and financial responsibility. I know of at least a couple of male doms over the years who've basically bankrupted their slaves too. (A very sad and IMO disgusting abuse of the power dynamic.)

Here are half a dozen questions for further pondering...

1. Would it make a difference if a dom told you right up front that s/he had a fetish for financial extortion?

2. If you knew a dom/domme was likely to drain you of funds right up front, would you enter that relationship?

3. If you know giving the dom/domme money is part of your arrangement, and you enter the relationship anyway, who's fault is it?

4. Why does a dom/domme *use* a money punishment instead of, say, telling you to scrub the bathroom tiles with a toothbrush or making you do some other mind-numbingly dull chore to punish you?

5. Do you set up financial limits (i.e., how much, if any control, the dom/domme will have over your assets) during negotiation? Are those limits respected? If not, what do you, as a sub, do when your money limits are NOT respected?

6. If you're merrily going along with your depraved owner's whims, how and where do you draw the line when it comes to money?

(Paul--a 7th question just for you: did your financial punishment teach you a good lesson? Other than not letting that domme take more money from you, I mean? *g* Seriously, did you feel at the time that it was a meaningful punishment, even if you had regrets later?)

Glory

Its a crock.

Justin Medlin