Hey, folks. I've finally scrubbed off the old Hot Topics (they are all now available in the Message Board Archives, thanks to ketzele!). If you're looking for the old discussions, click the link at the top of the page to visit the archives.

Meanwhile, the lovely Kate offers us a great new topic to grapple with. Here it is!

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POSTED BY: NastyKate

Will all the dissecting of BDSM and D/s lifestyles like we do here to better understand what it encompassas I often wondered what it is that those folks who are into humilation does for them.

Those who have this in their relationships can you please explain to me as Doms what it is that excites you or what this activity provides to you? is it control? is it funny? is it proof that your sub will do exactly what you want? and for the submissives, is it just the fact that you are submitting and doing exactly what your Dom wants?

Personally I cant see myself eating out of a dish off the floor without freaking out - I can submit without all that in my life and the only humiliating thing I will do is public flashing or buying cucumbers in the store wearing trampy clothes - I wont to this day figure out what it is that could be fulfilling and would love to hear how it transpires in various relationships and scenes. I have heard some stories from Craig that were private "scenes" but am curious as to what it brings to those who participate in it and what exactly transpired.

Kate,

I'll take first crack at this.

Humiliation is a major fetish of mine and a key to my SM sexuality. I can't tell you exactly *why* it is erotic--just that it is, and has been for as long as I can remember, going right back to my early childhood. My fantasies always involved involuntary exposure, forced sex, forced inspections, forced dressing in odd or embarrassing (slutty) outfits, and on and on (and on and on and on some more, and on a little more after that! *g*). Humiliation and "forcing" (with a happily consenting forcee, of course *g*) epitomize power to me--total psychological control, which--for a nerd like me--is even headier than physical control. You know--control their minds and their bodies will follow. :-)

It's fun knowing a sub's hot buttons, physically, but, for me, it's positively intoxicating (and super-hormone inducing) when I can make them tongue-tied with embarrassment. The turn-on is the rush of power at making them so helpless they get non-verbal. I constantly torment Will's slave with embarrassing threats and nicknames that make her blush, giggle, and hide her face (and occasionally simply flee to another room).

My predeliction for humiliation really ranges all over the SM map and has helped me enormously to eroticize a lot of fetishes I might not otherwise have found that sexy. An example: I've been with a few cross-dressers over the years, and the ones I get along with best (sexually, that is) are those who want a forced cross-dressing scenario, and who find it embarrassing to be forced to prance about in, oh, say, a flouncy pink tutu.

I've had a number of lovers/friends who were NOT humiliated by xdressing, but were into it as a sensual exression of their feminine natures. And, frankly, I don't connect as well to them as I do to guys who turn red and stutter.

On its own, crossdressing doesn't do it for me; but once I saw opportunities to humiliate my sissy partner, it became an incredibly delightful way to play. Same-same with spanking...foot fetishism... infantilism... bondage...water sports... you name it. Some of those things were either unknown to me or not very interesting to me until I saw the potential for humiliation.

my personal take on it,

Glory

Okay - Gloria and all other Doms...
...some questions:

1) After you have "humiliated" someone (e.g., seeing them become non-verbal, etc.), how does that "power" feeling get translated into more "general" feelings toward that humiliated person?
Simply put, do you like them more? disrespect them? or
are you just ambivalent towards them?

2) Do You feel as though "humiliation" is a form of "topping"?
If NOT - then how do You *define* it?
If YES ---then, particularly to Gloria, my understanding was that you did *not* top Will's slave(s).

3) When do you feel the humiliation has gone "too far" and what would make you stop?

I feel somewhat like as Kate has described -
I could not be leashed and eat from a pet dish at the floor; I don't believe I could find anything "erotic" from being chained to a bed post and made to sleep on the floor, etc. -

For *me* (this is just me) there would come a point where the feelings of "shame", embarrassment, or whatever would become damaging.
I would feel very badly about myself and would perceive the humiliation as "attack" - perhaps as "abusive".

Does all of this just have to do with the consensuality of the involved partners?

Is it some difference in how one might define "humiliation"?
I've always thought of humiliation in a negative sense - one in which the person's sense of dignity or self-respect is lowered.

Perhaps my understaning is off or tainted in some way.
My experience of "humiliation" seems to center into aspects of "discipline" - and their is some sort of connection with the other *caring*.
So - I hope the variances can be explained.

~Sublimity

Frank's very much into humiliation -- more in the last year than ever, actually. It's hard to adjust my head around it sometimes, but I think that's because he didn't do much of it for such a long time.

I think the reason I find it erotic is because it turns him on so much. I'm a blusher and stutterer and stammerer from way back, and he loves to push me until I get there and beyond, into crying.

The hardest to get used to is name calling, and having those names written on me. (and then posted in his journal, ack!)

Lisa

All,
I've always found Humiliating my sub tremendously exciting and most of my earliest sexual fantasies center around it in some way. The random inspections, slutty outfits in public, the occasional public nudity, really all the things Gloria mentioned. I don't get to do much of it now, since babydoll isn't much into it; she finds it just degrading and cannot eroticize it, but it is always there in the back of my mind.
As far as the nature of the turn-on, I'm right along with Gloria on this one. Although, just the act of doing it - more correctly having the power to do it - is enough. Even if my sub were not reduced to the non-verbal state, I would still get a tremendous kick out of it.
As for the semantics (mmmm...semantics), I've always made a distinction between "emberasment" and "humiliation". Emberasment I use for the sense of 'true' degradation. Even though 'humiliation' usually has that connotation, here in BDSM world (at least, my BDSM world) the connotation has been changed, just like the connotations of pain and powerlessness. Like pain and powerlessness, humiliation is added to the pantheon of the good/bad (gutschlecht): those things that are commonly used with negative connotation, but which - through our mutual and common pleasure - have become good. Emberasment, agony, and helplessness we use with their standard, negative, connotation.
I know that was a mouthful of nothin', but we pedantic Teutons love to talk about language; especially our own idiomatic usages.
Thanks for listening,
-AN

Wow, great responses, would love to hear from other Doms on their take on this - I also am curious from the Doms on how they would use this with a Submissive who is dealing with self esteem issues or abusive issues from previous relationships or from bad parenting/upbringing? I can see Gloria's side of this very clearly, and can see the "excitement" from making the sub run, blush, etc....I actually understand that - its the severe humiliation that just breaks my heart when I see/hear about it. Such as in Lisa's journal, the toting around with a leash, the writing on your body - its a little beyond my limits, but after many years of marriage and "forming" wouldn't be that hard to take - and by the way Lisa, you look FANTASTIC!

Love Kate

My take on it:

I believe that humiliation within the correct boundaries fosters not only excitement for the Dom/Domme, but also the sub. There are various reasons for this both physically and emotionally, but I believe that this particular form of "play" falls more under the mental realm. For the Dom/Domme, not only does it show your power over the sub, but it also falls under that whole mind fuck thing I think. To be able to control someone physically isn't that difficult, but to crawl into someone's head and poke around is an even more powerful experience. For the sub, I think that it provides a powerful show of your Dom's power over you, and His/Her ability to control every aspect of you. In order to embarrass someone, you must first find their "hot-buttons".

As for me personally, I don't find humiliation erotic, except as it translates in submission to my will. A willingness to do something that goes directly against your grain simply because it is something that I told you to do. There are other uses and reasons behind it as well that are oft times over-looked by a sub, because, understandably, they can't see past the feelings that it invokes in them. In the larger scheme of things, humiliation can be used as a tool to push the sub's limits of tolerance the same way physical pain can. That in no way means that you have free reign to push someone to the point where it would become damaging. No responsible Dom/Domme would do that. You have to trust that they have your best interest at heart, even when you can't see it.

Without pushing you past your limits, without forcing you to go past the point where you are comfortable, there will never be growth or advancement. None of us are here because we are satisfied with our "comfort zones". If that was who we were as people, the "nilla" world would be a wonderful place for us. No matter how BDSM translates in your life, or where your journey leads you in the lifestyle, the whole point is personal growth. How you achieve that, and what avenues your Dom/Domme uses to guide you there, are as varied as the people who participate. No one thing will work with all people. But humiliation shouldn't always be looked as as a negative thing. Think of it as a tool that can be used to further not only your growth, but also your connection and trust with/of your Dom/Domme.

Just my humble take on things...:)

Lady Sunshine

As Gloria expressed so eloquently, its the "control" thing.

Humilation isn't as important to me as, oh, physical expressions of sadomasochism, BUT I enjoy the reaction of the bottom. That is what is erotic for me, their reaction to my control. That embarrassed arousal. If that is not the reaction, then humilation is meaningless for me.

As someone who has played both ends of the spectrum here - as a submissive, the dividing line between shame and erotic humilation is fairly well defined. Hurt happens pretty quickly. I'm just not into it as a sub - and the nice thing as a bottom, is - I Just Say No.

Seems as a Dominant I find I can dish out better then I can take. I used to not get into any verbal humilation at all. Now I like it <g>. Stuff like the submissive being on his hands and knees as a table with his anus acting as a budvase - I find that a turn on. Pee play, when the reaction on the sub's part is humilation/arousal - I find myself very turned on.

<shrug>

Ann

You're so sweet Kate! Some day I will look in the mirror and not see fat.

I used to tell Frank that he should plan every day for "how should I make Lisa come today?" LOL. He's changed that to "what's the most humilating way I can make Lisa come today?" Oops!

[aside -- he was picked as "Dom of the Month" on the Dom's View Ezine, and has a cool interview up there, where he answered the questions very honestly. It's at http://www.domsview.com/dommonth.htm .]

Hi. The names Dan. I'm pretty much "vanilla" in terms of no actual experience, but I've been into kink, particularly bondage, since I was a little kid, long long before I had internet access and discovered the term... so, I hope you don't hold my "untested" status against me :)

In particular, I've had an obsession of learning all I could of master/slave TPE relationships. Been to "submissive women speak", been to the Powererotics homepage, read a ton of faqs and info, includeing Raven Shadowhawks (or it it Shadow Ravenhawks O'o) page on abuse in the BDSM lifestyle. Very, very, inquisitive, fairly paranoid, but I love to learn, and especially love hearing personal experiences, although I connect more with an objective point of view, which is why I find Jon and Polly's site a little hard to digest at times, with their fairly black and white view on TPE, or APE as they call it.

So, enough backround on me :)

Now, I'm still not satisfied with how one can tell the difference between simply humiliateing a slave/bottom, and actually hurting them. I mean, this talk of actually sending them into tears and teaseing them untill they go running from the room sounds pretty...borderline to me. So, what're the telltale signs of "it's good" humiliation and "going too far" humiliation? I imagine you'd have to know your sub very very well, but, are there any general signs to look out for, or is this something that you simply feel, yet can't explain?

Personally, I have a pretty fragile ego, and am very, very easily hurt...

(General posting)

Great topic, Kate. :-) I could probably spend most of the day relating my personal thoughts about it, but unfortunately I will have to offer the abridged version for the time being (and hope you'll understand why).

Short and sweet opinion: When a submissive/slave/bottom does ANYTHING in the realm of giving power to their dominant/top, it's a form of humiliation. I certainly realize that many things just aren't viewed that way by most, but consider this:

What's the submissive/slave/bottom DOING when they consent to give power to another? Isn't the act itself (regardless of WHAT the 'act' is) specifically placing them in a position of humbling themselves for the pleasure of their dominant/top, while at the same time, they're gaining some measure of pleasure from having done so?

Sure, it may seem like a contradiction that things which are viewed in vanilla terms as negative and abusive could be perceived as loving and caring, but it's in the realization that they CAN BE the latter which is part of what makes BDSM special. And more often than not, the deeper you can go with such things, the more special you would find it to be. Activities involving humiliation are remarkably (and, in my personal view, uniquely) so in this way.

I wish I could add more, but unfortunately need to get on about the day. Have a wonderful weekend all!

Be safe,
Thorn

Hi Dan -

We are all continually learning.

I think your question is good about where to draw a line of "distinction." And there may be no black and white answers for that. It may all be entwined intot he relationship and people involved.

See, *I* love to be brought to tears...*but* not by just *any*one. It has to be with someone I am perceiving as my top/dom/etc.

If *I* were in a room and felt attacked (this is me personally) I would no longer think of the person as caring for me. At that point, my "submission" would end and I would probably attack back...not run away. I am too much of a "fighter"; easily wounded; and in need of feeling warmth and acceptance.

Contrariwise, what *I* may need may be altogether different from what another submissive needs. She/he may want/need *more* than what I can handle.

So, personally, I see it as a "fit" and the matches, once again, are as unique as those that are involved.

Sublimity

Hi Dan and welcome!

<<Now, I'm still not satisfied with how one can tell the difference between simply humiliateing a slave/bottom, and actually hurting them. I mean, this talk of actually sending them into tears and teaseing them untill they go running from the room sounds pretty...borderline to me. So, what're the telltale signs of "it's good" humiliation and "going too far" humiliation? I imagine you'd have to know your sub very very well, but, are there any general signs to look out for, or is this something that you simply feel, yet can't explain? >>

First i'd like to take a sec to throw out some definitions straight from Merriam Webster's
dictionary.

humiliate=to reduce to a lower position in one's
own eyes or others' eyes.

embarrass=1 a : to place in doubt, perplexity,
or difficulties b : to involve in financial difficulties c : to cause to experience
a state of self-conscious distress
2 a : to hamper the movement of b : HINDER, IMPEDE
3 : to make intricate : COMPLICATE
4 : to impair the activity of (a bodily function) or the function of (a bodily part) <digestion embarrassed by overeating>

As a child we all know the ramifications of being embarrassed or humiliated. It can be very damaging to the psyche. i believe that we have had this fact pounded into us by society for years. How childhood has affected our adulthood and what not.

The remaining fact is that we ARE now adults and capable of responding to things as such. We try to live our lives to keep ourselves as healthy emotionally and physically as possible.

Thorn really did beat me to the punch here so to speak. As you can see from the above definition just submitting to another falls right into the definition of being humiliated.

i personally have been through great struggles
with my need to both submit, and be embarrassed.
i have came to the conclusion that
i don't know WHY i am the way i am, and i don't NEED
to know why anymore.

It's like asking me why i like the taste of chocolate, i don't know and i don't care, just let me eat it in peace and enjoy!

Master and i have just started really exploring the embarrassment venue.

i can only say that He knows me so well, and reads me so well that i know He would never intentionally cross the line and damage me.
i trust Him. i have confidence that He is paying attention to all of my reactions and constantly making sure things seem to be having the "proper affect".

He probably couldn't tell you when He knows it's "enough" because it does go into exploration and growth and knowledge of your sub and her needs. Also, one day's "enough" might not be the same as another day.

Also, i deeply desire to fulfill His needs in this venue, and if i know i'm pleasing Him can go just about anywhere he leads me as long as after heavy humiliation/embarrassment He tells me how proud He is of me and How much i've pleased Him.

Make sense? Just my opinion....everyone is different...to each their own...etc..

dove

I also think the way you find out how well it works with your partner is to work at it slowly. If Frank'd had started off with writing names on me and posting the pictures on the internet, I probably would have never returned for a second date, eh? (Unless it was something that had already turned me on -- I know people who have bought flavored pens just for that reason, and have yet to get hooked up with the DOTDs.)

Lisa

WOW great topic. I have often tried to explain humiliation to myself and can't seem to find the explanation to justify it to myself let alone someone else. But I do know it is right for me. At the same time I know my limits and so does my dom! As in a vanilla relationship you need trust and that comes with time of course. I think for me, the respect my dom shows me outside of a scene is what works for me, knowing that he would never do anything to harm me. He also knows my emotinal needs as well. He knows at the end of a session that he has to CLEAN IT UP :). I am a true submissive but I also find pleasure in submitting because it gives me a feeling of power also. Knowing that I have power enough to surrender to my dom, and power enough not to take that humiliation into my every day life. I know when he calls me names or whatever that it is a part of the power and does not make me what he calls me. If you were to ask anyone that knows me If I would ever be submissive to someone the answer would be no...........I am very strong willed, very demanding of respect and very confident in my every day life. To end this........you can not be what you are not, being Dominant or submissive is something we also surrender to, something inside of us. We don't wake up one day and decide to try it. It is more of something that has always been there........and we surrender to it. Great reading The Story of "O"

Whoa ... I go away for a few days and look what I miss !!!

I have to say, humiliation is without any doubt one of the most important aspects of D/s interaction for me. As so many others have already said, I see it as an expression of control. It's a fine line ... going far enough that your partner feels vulnerable and just a bit outraged ... but not so far that they feel upset and genuinely scared. For me, being able to push their buttons and bring out these feelings at will underscores the entire dominant-submissive control dynamic.

Of course, what's humiliating to one person may not do anything for someone else, so effective humiliation also underscores just how well you know a person, and emphasises the intimacy between you.

If there's a more powerful drug on earth, I've yet to see it.

Craig

Ok...with a bit of time to address this properly, here's ONE view of this chazarai:

Intent is everything.

If someone 'new' to this (and possibly even basically a vanilla person at that point) hears that a dominant plans to put a <gasp> COLLAR around their neck, they may believe that to be too humiliating to bear. Why would someone want them to appear to be treated like a common animal? Help them understand the intent, however -- help them understand the pleasure and very special significance in the meaning -- and what generally happens to their perception of the act? And as time goes on, even though the act is still as much humliating as it was the very first time (nothing changed except perception of intent), does the submissive FEEL that it's a humiliating act? Few even correlate it to humiliation after a time. Why is that? Because they feel special? Because they feel loved? Because they feel owned? Because they come to enjoy the way it looks on their neck? All of the above?

Intent is everything.

Let's say it's dinner time. The dominant sits down to the table but seems to be a bit miffed (<koff> like we ever get miffed) about something the submissive did improperly during the day. S/he takes the submissive's plate and sets it down on the floor at their feet. "Let's get past (fill in the blank), my precious one," they say, pointing to the spot on the floor that the submissive should occupy. The meaning of this is obvious. Nothing further even needs to be said. The submissive is not going to be injured, but their compliance will cleanse whatever the issue is and it'll be put behind them. They may not 'like' the act itself, but they understand the meaning of it is in getting the issue out of the way and they WILL like THAT. It's precisely what they want most at that point. Is there anything unsafe about it? Is there anything insane about the purpose or method? Is there anything forced about it? The submissive can certainly turn around and walk away. But WILL they? They realize that their dominant is not abandoning them due to their action. They realize that they're still loved. They realize that this humiliating thing they must do is to be done right at their dominant's side. Hey! Maybe if they get enthusiatic about it, their dominant might even smile and caress them while they sit at his/her feet! Wouldn't THAT be nice? Maybe even a little (dare I say it?) EXCITING! And when it's done, it's done. Is this really SO hard to do to put whatever the issue is behind them?

Intent is everything.

Now we find our D-S couple at the local Piggly-Wiggly. As they amble through the produce section, our dominant gets that playful little sparkle. S/he inches up close to our submissive and whispers, just so only they can hear, "Look at the ripples on that ear of corn. How about the size of that thick cucumber over there? I'll just bet you would love to get one of those bananas alone." Our submissive begins to feel that familiar warm rush and lets out a barely audible sigh. Of course, they quickly look around to see if anyone's watching. People might KNOW what they're talking about! But their dominant is right there to wipe that all away. The words are whispered between them with a nice warmth of breath. "You really are a slut, aren't you?" The submissive only becomes more flushed at the way their body is responding to this. "ANSWER ME," the dominant whispers with a firmer tone. "Yesss," the submissive hisses back. "You know I am. I am YOUR slut." Our dominant smiles. And our submissive mirrors that smile. They know the meaning of this little game. They know their dominant is completely cognizant of the environment. They know they are in no real danger. The humiliation they feel only serves to heighten their desire and passion. Simple. Elegant. And as they head through the express lane, knowing what they will likely be doing in about an hour, the submissive basks in the glow of belonging...and feeling sorry for everyone who isn't them. :-)

Intent is everything.

Here's one more. A hypothetical female submissive has spent a good portion of their life dealing with various issues about their appearance. They know intellectually that they are a beautiful person, but the patterns they've established interfere with their emotional understanding. Then, one night our hypothetical male dominant takes her out to a local BDSM club where nudity is common. He instructs her to wear a very short skirt and thigh high stockings, but no panties. She groans a bit, but complies willingly. While at the club later, she is VERY self-conscious throughout the evening, but makes no overture about wanting to leave. In fact, after a while, she becomes quite comfortable just staying close to his side and realizes that she's getting to be 'a bit naughty' without any potential for a negative consequence. She feels humiliation, but she also feels protected. Safe. Then, at one point during the excursion, he pulls her down across his lap so that her short skirt flies up around her hips. She immediately feels her entire body blush at the act. She wiggles a little as an instinctive flight response, but he quickly gives her slap to her ass which serves to stop her movements. She knows people can see her. She feels completely exposed. Yet at the same time, a comforting thought occurs to her: She is in her MASTER'S lap. HE is in control. No one else is doing anything to her. And as she looks around quickly, something else enters her thoughts. The people who are looking at her seem excited. Excited at looking at HER. She still wants to run and hide as quickly as she can, but strangely enough, part of her suddenly wants to go in the opposite direction and put on more of a 'show'. She realizes she's enjoying this attention, humiliating as it is. Because she's safe. Because she's giving pleasure. Because she's feeling sexy about herself. Because her master is smiling. And she realizes that his complete intent was to show her off a little -- to show how beautiful he thinks she is. And she feels good. :-)

Intent is everything.

Be safe,
Thorn

Dan sez...

Now, I'm still not satisfied with how one can tell the difference between simply humiliateing a slave/bottom, and actually hurting them. I mean, this talk of actually sending them into tears and teaseing them untill they go running from the room sounds pretty...borderline to me. So, what're the telltale signs of "it's good" humiliation and "going too far" humiliation? I imagine you'd have to know your sub very very well, but, are there any general signs to look out for, or is this something that you simply feel, yet can't explain?

I'll take a stab at this - since this is something I've had failures as well as successes at here.

First - the getting to know your sub well part is very important. Lots of discussion of the honest sort, not the "Whatever would please Master/Mistress" stuff. Talk about turn ons - turn offs, fantasies etc.

The last person to really engage is a Dominant D/s role with me had me write really detailed fantasies. He'd give me a topic - something along the lines of, write about an edgeplay scene in a particular situation. Fun reading for him and a virtual roadmap of my head too.

Coming from the Domme side of this, well again we talk. Talk a lot about fantasies, experiences and the like.

The things that I'm looking for are reactions. Yes, is he blushing and looking down - but to be blunt - is his dick hard? Is his breathing heavy? If I lean over and touch him, how does he respond?

I've also started engaging in a lot of talking dirty during sex or play, looking for a reaction.

When I do engage in humilating activities, I watch him real careful, and then later at a very neutral point - ask him how he felt, pick the scene apart.

My SO is not the most submissive fella out in the real world. Makes his submission just so much more intense when he gets to that point. Seems like the things I say that are truly touching on that painfully embarrassing part of humilation are also awfully arousing for him and put him in a submissive place.

Still, I have gone over the line. He goes cold and its hard to get him back to that place.

So, yeah by feel and by really clear communications. I mean this is ALL consensual, right?

Ann

OK, folks. Will ordered his slave, ketzele, (aka "kittypet") to write up this little description of her latest experience with humiliation. It probably doesn't answer any questions...but we certainly found it, er, stimulating :-)

************************

I am sitting here wearing a frilly bright pink tutu, pink leotard, white lace tights and little pink ballet slippers. It's terribly cute, dangerously cute, insanely cute and makes me feel like I was 5 years old and some little princess. Master and Gloria had me put on this outfit last night and I was just dying, I saw myself in the mirror and it was just SO over the top. What's more, I know that Gloria's former slave tinkerbell wore these very same things, the poor guy! I find it embarassing to wear them but I also know I look unbearably adorable, except you can see my nipples right through this leotard. It must have been a whole different experience for tinkerbell, I mean guys aren't supposed to wear frilly pink things! It's bad enough for me, I mean I'm a grown woman & a manager, not the tooth fairy :)
 
They had me walk around a bit and these ballet shoes felt so funny on my feet, Master started making chicken clucks at me and flapping his arms like wings. That was embarassing too but a whole different kind of embarassment and I had to glare and scowl and stamp my feet in an attempt to be so cute he'd be distracted and stop mocking me! This whole pink tutu thing is deeply embarassing but making fun of me walking funny was different, bad humiliation if you will. He's made me do ridiculous or deeply humiliating things before and I can't explain why it turns me on to be so humbled, to have my dignity violated. My libido betrays me! I guess violating my dignity is good and reinforces my position as slave, but things that impact my self-esteem are bad?
 
I must flounce away now in this pussy-pink outfit and serve brunch. Ta-ta! kisses, kittypet

"kittypet" wrote:

"...and makes me feel like I was 5 years old and some little princess. ...I saw myself in the mirror and it was just SO over the top."

Then "kittypet" wrote"

"...Master started making chicken clucks at me and flapping his arms like wings. That was embarrassing, too but a whole different kind of embarrassment and I had to glare and scowl and stamp my feet...

"I guess violating my dignity is good and reinforces my position as slave, but things that impact my self-esteem are bad?"

I am glad "kittypet" decided to "glare," "scowl," and stomp her feet. <wave to kittypet; "hi!">

*But* - I was reading everything a bit differently from how described at the end...
The part about violating "dignity is good and reinforces...position as a slave."

IMHO, as it is described, when kittypet's Master made the chicken clucks and flapped his arms like wings, this, too, was a *potential* "violation of dignity" which leads to a negative impact on self-esteem.

I think the *good* thing that gives reinforcement as a slave - and as cared for as a person...is that kittypet *LIKED* feeling 5 years old and like someone's princess!
That - to me - is *good* "humiliation" - and only "humiliation" because kittypet is a grown professional woman.

The *bad* thing that impacts self-esteem, for kittypet, as I see it, is that she did *not* want to be perceived as a "clucking, wing-flapping chicken."
It was, (again imo ---I don't like the clamps!) a violation of "dignity" and worth for kittypet to be perceived in that light and caused her not to feel cared for/appreciated/respected.

~sublimity (sometimes longing to be a little princess, too...but never a clucking chicken 8:)

Gloria - Will *you* "command" Will to write a post on this??

At the beginning --maybe # 3 or so, I had asked a question. I'm certain it has been addressed to some extent - but I'm still curious:

*****How do You Dom/mes feel/react/think about Your SO's after you have "humiliated" them?*****

*****How do You Dom/mes like for Your partner to respond?****

*****If Your partner feels badly from the humiliation (hurt; etc.), how do You Dom/mes feel about the reqction you invoked??****

Thorn

Intent is everything.....now I do see it much more clearly - 2 of the 3 scenerios you described I have experienced and no doubt will experience again - and I will definitely understand it much better then I did the first, 2nd, etc time.

Unfortunately I learn more from this board then I do M - and even more unfortunately is we are taking time away - but for me its ok - its just ok....

sublimity,

I have an idea!

Why don't *you* "command Will" and see what happens?

Then report back to us...if you can control your trembling... ;-)

Glory

pssst, I think you better go back to that polyamory thread and re-read my comments on respecting other doms' space :-)

(:+(

<thinking hard>
Ah - now Glory - you *know* that there is too much distance between Will and myself for me to even *try* that little scenario.

If, however, I were *closer*...for research purposes only...I would try it out ;)

~sublimity

To: nastykate

I'm saddened to hear that you two have decided to spend time apart, Kate, but glad that you feel you're supported and cared about here. And, of course, I'm happy that you feel you gained a little insight into something which may have eluded you previously.

This really is an exceptional topic that you've posed and probably one of the more misunderstood dynamics in BDSM. Thanks to your having posted it, I have no doubt that literally thousands of people have gotten an 'aha' that they would not have gotten otherwise. ;-)

Be safe,
T.

To: Thorn

definitely Aha! or more like, Ahhhhhhh oh now I get it!

<big grin>

Kate***

Sublimity, couple of things please. First is, I hope, not something which you'll take badly but that joke about ordering my Master really fell flat with me. I mean in the real world I wouldn't go around commanding people unless We were the Queen and they were Our subjects or there was some other established hierarchical relationship, and in BDSM I don't think it's any different, except within an established D/s relationship as the participants have agreed to. Did you think it's different because Will is married to Gloria? They don't have a D/s relationship now you know, but are a loving and mutually supportive dominant team of perversion :)

Anyway I didn't mean to harp on that, it just bugged me.

The other thing I wanted to address (now that I've found my password and don't have to ask dear Gloria to post for me) is that I wanted to clarify the distinction I was trying to make between dignity and self-esteem, and how Master was making clucking-like broody hen noises at me when I was walking funny in ballet slippers. I hope I can express myself more clearly now that I'm sitting in my office wearing business attire! Wearing that fluffy pink get-up capped my IQ off at about 80 I figure, I'm surprised I could use multisyllabic words.

Anyway, the distinction I meant to make between dignity and self-esteem, is that a lot of dignity is about one's position in society, the external behavioral cues that people give off to let others know their social rank. Well you might talk about an internal sense of dignity but this is what I mean. I'm a wealthy businesswoman and manager and I kick ass AND take names! No one tells me what to do. Except Master.. and then I'm his sex slave, naked and trembling on my knees before him but for his collar round my neck. Or wearing a frilly pink tutu :)

So to strip away my dignity reinforces my position as slave (and really turns me on), but it doesn't touch my self-esteem. I guess some people's self-esteem is bound up with their dignity but my sense of self-worth isn't affected by wearing ridiculous outfits or not, except in the sense that I was proud of myself for being a good slave and obeying Will and pleasing him and Gloria, and the way they both praised me for being so utterly adorable was fun too! :)

Yeah, I was walking funny in those ballet shoes and Master made fun of me for that. He didn't MAKE me walk funny in those shoes. I did that entirely on my own. So why shouldn't he laugh at it? Objectively, it was funny. Joke was at my expense but I learned to walk normally in the shoes and if he hadn't called my attention to it, I would have pranced around like a ridiculous chicken the rest of the night, I'm sure. It did not cause me "not to feel cared for/appreciated/respected", it caused me to glare at him and pay attention to how I was walking. I didn't find it sexually exciting, but I don't want to leave you with an impression that my psyche was damaged either.

What was the Sea Chanty that Will sang last year at SEEB that had us all crying with laughter while he tortured you with those devious clamps?

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair

i've been following this thread closely, and, unfortunately, haven't gotten Thorn's "Aha!" yet--although intellectually i understand the points being made. They just don't seem to be transfering very well over to my gut. <wry smile>

i think i must be one of those people who's sense of dignity is wrapped up with their self-esteem (not a wonder, since i developed it as a way of surviving a hellish childhood--amazing how far back some of this crap can go). For me, exposure and desensitization seems to be the key to dealing with humiliation: beginning very slowly and building up, over time, to more sensitive areas, once the initial humiliating factor ceases to *be* humiliating... But it's such a lottery, because even i don't know where all the hot buttons are.

ketzele, your story is appreciated: thanks very much for posting it. *s* And Thorn, thanks also for your elaboration--i get a great deal out of your postings, they seem to get down there where i live, so-to-speak. *s* i got a *little* click with the collar analogy... Also many thanks to nastykate for posing the question to begin with: thanks, Kate. *s*

i think that this is an area where, if a Dominant wants to go there but has a submissive with issues, the only safe way to do it is with time, patience, and a lot of reassurance. Nothing new in that, of course--but i don't believe it can be stressed too much. *s*

rory

ketzele,

I regret that my joke of Gloria demanding/commanding you Master to do something offended you.
I am well aware of the relationship of Will and Gloria to the extent that Gloria and I have expressed it online - but in forum and privately.

Now - here is a question -
*Why* do you ---and Gloria---for that matter sate that BOTH Will and Gloria had you do something?
Gloria spoke of respecting another Dom's space.
Absolutely.
Yet, she also spoke of saying "humiliating" things to one of Will's slaves at home and the slave becoming embarrassed or running to another room.
My impression was that Gloria did not "top" Will's slaves???
Is this form of "humiliation" *not* a form of "topping?"

I am not *accusing* - merely ASKING.

I did not get the feeling that your "psyche was damaged." Quite the contrary.
You seem very "intact."

My post was merely to provide *my perspective* as I read the post.
If my perception was incorrect, then so be it.

Perhpas I should have said more of, "...I think if it were ME, I would feel such and such..."

ketzele, now, I hope that you do not take this badly...
but - I realize that in the "real world" and in the world of "BDSM" no one COMMANDS anyone to do something...unless if mutually agreed upon in that intimate relationship...

Why would my kidding bother you so?

Why was my expressing *my* take on the posting something you felt so strongly to defend?

You are very fortunate to have a Master - and one who's wife can accept your role in His/Their life.
For some of us ---or I shall say - for *me* - I am not in a relationship currently.
This Board is a source of "communituy" for me.
It is a place where I can share.
It is a place where I can learn.
It is a place where I can meet and laugh.

Again, if my "frivolity" offended you - I do apologize.
But it certainly was not aimed at hurting you.

Sublimity

To All who contributed to this weeks question - your very welcome, this definitely had some really good information and I think many folks, myself included learned alot about what some of these activities we indulge in actually mean. Its a different take on each persons description, Gloria and Wills being entertainment as well as a turn on, and others doing the total mind fuck, and Thorn describing the end result/intent....of various ways to humililate or "control" a sub - I will definitely see it in a different view in the future, and actually try to understand what he wants from me - and grow from it, not be afraid - ummmm....just say....ahhhhhhh :-)

Love Kate

Dear Mr. Poodle Flair,
I believe that was "What shall we do with a drunken sailor" although Will invented his own lyrics which I am afraid I don't recall! I won't ever forget him singing "Way-hay up she rises" and pulling me up on those evil clamps attached to my all-too-sensitive bits :)

Sublimity, I guess I think you should have said more of "I think if it were me, I would feel such and such" because what you did literally post was that my Master "caused her not to feel cared for/appreciated/respected". That just wasn't true. It's not that I'm offended and there's no need to apologize, but when someone says something about me that isn't true I sometimes gotta try to clear up matters. It's not a big deal. I figure it was my fault, I must have said something in my original muddled tutu-influenced post that was unclear enough to give you that strange impression, and so I wanted to set things straight.

I think I'm the luckiest slave in the world to have such a good Master and such a great relationship with his wife Gloria, who does occasionally mess with me within boundaries that she & her husband have agreed upon. I serve her as Master allows and commands me to, and as she allows and has requested of me from Master. I love her and my Master both. It is a wonderful relationship and I am in sheer heaven! That's why I said that she and Will made me do something. I dunno what the beauteous Gloria posted about not topping me but she doesn't in some sense, only within the extent that Master lends me to her. It's a complex and evolving dynamic :)

in merry polyamory,
     Will's slave ketzele

Folks, this thread has so inspired me that I decided to compose....

         AN ODE TO HUMILIATION

Ode to Humiliation

I like to grab a soul
with my bare hands and squeeze.
I like to seize a slave
and force him to his knees.

I like to make him blush,
and squirm and mewl and stutter.
It gives me such a rush.
It sets my heart aflutter.

The tears that fill his eyes--
so helpless and ashamed--
sparkle with surprise
when his body fills with flame.

I like to make him do things
that cause him mental pain;
my creativity takes wing
when I fuck with his brain.

I like to take him deep
into a place unknown,
where he is mine to keep,
and lives just to be owned.

I want him to surrender,
to leave his Self behind.
It makes me feel so tender
when I manipulate his mind.

copyright @2002 Gloria G. Brame
reproduction forbidden without written permission of the author

To: GloriaBrame

Welllll, I guess we now know who wins the 2002 poetry thing <g> (and just so happens to answer the original topic question quite eloquently). ;-)

Be safe,
T.

To: ketzele (with regards to your master)

The REALLY neat thing, Jen, is that there are at least 100 people on each inhabited continent who wish they were YOU (and probably an equal -- or even greater -- amount who wish they were HIM). Ever considered that? <eg>

As an addendum, I think we can all discern from this thread that regardless of how exciting humiliation may be, one should never -- in the interest of safety -- Drive Under the Tutu Influence. ;-)

T.

To: rory8535

I'm glad you decided to post your thoughts, rory (thank you). Particularly, what stands out is your position that you embrace the intellect of this without connecting to the emotion (and I understand your reasoning).

I hesistate to ask you to elaborate about the development of your 'survival' skills in this area, because it's obviously a part of your life that is very personal to you. Nevertheless, if it's possible to relate specific emotional defenses that you feel you developed when you were young -- and how they impact you in your adult life -- without getting into too much detail about specific circumstances from your youth, I'd be interested in that. Consider that it may also prove of benefit to many others in similar situations. If it's too much to lay out in the open, however, then please feel free to decline.

Regardless, I'm glad you felt this thread was useful. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

Oh that was excellant, Gloria!

I'm always amazed at those who can weave words so eloquently.

Ann

<<*Why* do you ---and Gloria---for that matter sate that BOTH Will and Gloria had you do something?
Gloria spoke of respecting another Dom's space.
Absolutely.
Yet, she also spoke of saying "humiliating" things to one of Will's slaves at home and the slave becoming embarrassed or running to another room.
My impression was that Gloria did not "top" Will's slaves???
Is this form of "humiliation" *not* a form of "topping?" >>

limity,

The things you mentioned above, I know can be confusing. Even when you 'think' you understand, 'being there' gives it a whole new meaning.

Recently, Mistress handed over to a male dom, (Steed) for service at a party. I had never done this before and was very proud she even considered it. With speaking with him on the phone, things felt 'good' although I was worried about fucking up. On the phone he would always reassuring, telling me how things will be fine, not to worry. At one point he said to me 'IF you fall, WE will catch you.' We, meaning him and Mistress. There was something about those words, that reassured every thing. I was ready!
I had never met Steed. We spoke online/phone a few times before being 'given over to him,' (I had never met a male dom for that matter) But it still felt ok.

Then it's FRIDAY. Reality hits!

Not only am I serving at this party but being 'told' what to do by a male dom. Yess, a MAN! That just wasn't something I cared for at all. Mistress and I talked about things and she reminded me, what I was doing through him, I was actually doing 'for her' - 'pleasing her'

Her 'dom space' wasn't invaded. Every thing was agreed to. Regardless, I was always hers. She could always step in. She was always in 'control' of me and anything I was doing 'for someone'

Was he topping/domming me? Yes. But my Mistress still had control of every thing. My being hers never changed. Everything I was being told to do by him, was agreed to. It was still hard and I fucked up. I do know all of this but when reality sets in, it becomes a whole new ball game.

Had I known Steed, maybe it would have been easier.
I can't speak for Jen but I can almost bet, she 'enjoys' doing things for Gloria. And the things she does, is out of love and respect. Respect for Gloria as a female dom, a very good friend, protectress, mentor and Will's wife. It never invades her Masters 'space,' she is simply invited/allowed and 'wanted' to share that space, with them both.

Steel

Thorn,
      You just made me spew corn chips all over my monitor. Please refrain from TuTu Influenced levity until after 7pm please. I damn near choked. I got this great visual of Jen doing the Chicken in the TuTu and it was damn near TuTu much.

Bok Bokbak
Bahak Bah Bahbokbah!

Careful Justin,

With all that noise, the poodle might think it's mating season.

Awww Steel you are a master of words :) That's it exactly! Like you read my mind.

Justin--- OMG. I just... O..M..G.

STEEL - When it came to the original post on polyamorous, I brought up my experience of feeling topped by the wife of a husband who was acting as my top. It was as though she was calling the shots about how he treated me and she and I had no relationship.

You are right - when one has not experienced something - at least in its full extent, it is hard to understand.

My questions to Gloria was to ask if *she* topped her husband's slave, etc., etc. in an attempt to see if my experience was "typical".

In retrospect, I can honestly say that this couple's marriage was tenuous at best and the had practically no experience on bringing in another.
I see that now...but, as you suggested, if you have not "been there" and done it - the only way to find out is to ask.

I can perhaps see myself in a relationship and having another - in a vicarious way - top me through my Master.
I could feel secure in the knowledge that my Master knows me and that He would not allow harm to befall me.
So, I understand the concepts to which you allude.

On the other hand, I don't know if I *personally* would ever want to be "loaned out."
This may sound like a contradiction, but even though I plan to go out to group activities and play - I do not see myself as a "player," and may not be able to enjoy it. I want something more one-on-one and intimate for *me*.
<s> I was told once that I was not "sophisticated" enough for this lifestyle - and that may be true.

Even after all of these great posts on the subject, I *still* do not think I understand or conceptualize the idea of "humiliation."

I thought with Jen's post that I had built a framework to help understand.
But from her response - obviously I missed her point completely.

See, I do not believe I could feel good if my dignity felt stripped in some way.

TO JEN - "kittypet" - My dear - if you go back to my post, I specifically said that my PERCEPTION of what you were saying had changed.
I specifically said over and over...IN MY OPINION, *this* is what I saw as happening.
NOT that it necessarily was.
I do not believe I said that you felt uncared for, etc.
I cannot speak for you.

I was trying to differentiate how you were feeling "over the top," etc. from how you felt when you "scowled."

And you are right. There was no need for me to apologize. I do that too much.
And I think you were a bit "touchy" about the joke about your master.
I'm sure Your Master can stand up quite well for himself.
So your reaction was hurtful.

Anyway - we are "adults" and can agree, disagree, debate and respond.
That's the great things about learning from one another.

~sublimity

sublimity,

A few comments.

First, you say that someone once commented you aren't sophisticated enough for the Scene. Have you considered, though, the source of that comment? How do you know he wasn't just saying that to attack your self-esteem and make you feel insecure? I see no failure of sophistication on your part. What I see is confusion, conflict, inexperience, and many of the other typical problems that novice submissives grapple with.

I'm curious about your comment,

<<And I think you were a bit "touchy" about the joke about your master.
I'm sure Your Master can stand up quite well for himself.
So your reaction was hurtful. >>

Are you suggesting that you expected Will to jump into this thread to explain himself to you? Why would he? I'm perplexed why ketzele explaining her reaction to your comments would be hurtful or why you think her Master should come here to address your concerns.

Let me try to clarify it for you one more time. I don't top ketzele. She isn't my slave. She is like a younger sister/adopted daughter/highly teasable friend who is my husband's property. She doesn't have to accept any orders from me (unless her Master commands her to do so). No punishment ensues if she doesn't do something I ask of her. The services she renders to me (she's a great beverage-fetcher and not a half-bad foot-rubber either *g*) she does freely, out of affection and because it gives her a thrill. She is hardly a craven sub who goes along passively with my whims (dare I say...ALAS! *g* juuuust kidding!).

When her Master humiliates her, she has no choice: or, rather, she made her choice a year ago when she consented, willingly, happily, and KNOWINGLY, to being his slave. She understood, inside out, what it meant to be collared by Will (not just any generic dom); she accepted, among other things, that he was married happily to a dominant wife. (In fact, I was a part of their quite romantic private little collaring ceremony.) She has found a safe place with us and when I do tease and torment her, it is never to undermine or otherwise interfere with her power relationship with Will. Will is 100% in the loop on everything we do and say. She plays along with me because she loves it, not because she is bound to it. Trust me, when she doesn't want to do something I ask, she turns sweetly to her Master and begs off. Sometimes he indulges her; sometimes he indulges me. That is HIS choice and although I'm a dom, I don't question it because our basic rule of thumb here is "your slave is your business."

Though I am currently in the market for someone, I had a very lovely 5 year relationship (ended just last year) with a very wonderful slave. Although he didn't spend as much time with us as ketzele, and although he isn't as bi-oriented as ketzele (which does make a difference in same-sex interactions), he and Will had their own interesting dynamic. Will could always order my slave to fetch stuff for him, he could tease him freely, and yet none of it ever in any way threatened the Mistress/slave dynamic. Again, because a good dom, one who is secure within him/herself, doesn't need to get into pissing contests and power trips with other doms. He or She understands instinctively that you treat other doms the way you expect to be treated: with courtesy, respect, and honor.

If there's anything that disgusts me in the Scene, frankly, it's people with "Top's Disease," who think it's all about proving that they have the "most" power. To me, those are the weakest doms, who are taking out their ego problems on others and passing it off as dominance.

As for you, limity...I hope this won't hurt your feelings but feel I need to point out that some of your attempts at humor do come off as stressed out and even mildly hostile. Is it possible you're bringing some old baggage to this dialogue and that it needs to be worked out before you can really wrap your mind about what humiliation is and isn't?

Gloria

sublimity,

i'm not sure that anyone can give the answer you are searching for. Boy, do i know how that feels. Talk about questions! i've had more than my share over the years and all too often many "concepts" about BDSM were hard to grasp.

i can say this. i used to say that humiliation wasn't my thing at all. i wasn't interested in "that sort of thing". As i grew into my submission, and this lifestyle i found that many of my interests and desires did have a very real aspect of humiliation involved. It just happened that at the time i didn't "recognize" it as such.

<<Even after all of these great posts on the subject, I *still* do not think I understand or conceptualize the idea of "humiliation." >>

Currently, you might just be in a place where humiliation doesn't flip the switch for you. That's ok, and that is also not to say that after time and growth and ....ughh...yes, more soul searching you might find that there are aspects of humiliation embedded into many of your desires. There also is the possibility that humiliation will never be your "thing". To each their own.

<<I do not see myself as a "player," and may not be able to enjoy it. I want something more one-on-one and intimate for *me*.
<s> I was told once that I was not "sophisticated" enough for this lifestyle - and that may be true. >>

Who knows YOU better than YOU? i would say if you already have the vision of what it is you want that you stick to your guns and wait for it. Have fun, explore and grow...but never settle. Especially for someone who will not give YOU everything YOU need and desire. This lifestyle will never make you happy if you settle for something you already know isn't YOU. Sophisticated? Whatever that has to do with anything, i'm not quite sure. Sophisticated or not, it is nobody's place to tell you where you fit or where you don't. Your desires/wants/needs are your own and you can only be who you are. Nothing more, nothing less.

i personally hope you find all the happiness you deserve as well as answers to the topic at hand. Humiliation? Why is it exciting? Shoot...it excites me...and i'm not sure i can explain why.

*smiles*

Take care,

dove

<< (In fact, I was a part of their quite romantic private little collaring ceremony.) >>

Wow Gloria!
You get to be in the middle of bunches of stuff!<g>
:x

i have been following this thread and not posting because i really couldn't possibly put this highly emotional aspect of some relationships into words. But i will say this: The fact that humiliation can be exciting is, i think, largely wrapped up in bottom's deep and abiding knowledge that the Top truly has enough knowledge of and respect for the bottom that the humiliation can be perceived by both as *intentionally* non-damaging. In a relationship where any significant part of a person's self-esteem is in doubt, i can't imagine that humiliation would be any thrill whatsoever. The hurt may not be the intention, but the fact that it could certainly be the result removes any possibility of pleasure from it, in my opinion.

Peace
firebaby

I've been gone for a couple of weeks and look what I returned to: what a great topic, what fantastic posts!

I read all the messages and didn't notice (or missed) comments about the positive effects of well-placed, well-timed humiliations.

I've noticed that it makes my sub feel even more adoring, it binds him even closer, it keeps him ecstatically at my feet when he has the chance to demonstrate his submission by doing something hard, something which is "out there" .....but doesn't leave him there.
And I feel again how much he belongs to me.

Deb

Thorn says:
>>>To: rory8535

 I'm glad you decided to post your thoughts, rory (thank you). Particularly, what stands out is your position that you embrace the intellect of this without connecting to the emotion (and I understand your reasoning).

 I hesistate to ask you to elaborate about the development of your 'survival' skills in this area, because it's
 obviously a part of your life that is very personal to you. Nevertheless, if it's possible to relate specific emotional defenses that you feel you developed when you were young -- and how they impact you in your adult life -- without getting into too much detail about specific circumstances from your youth, I'd be interested in that. Consider that it may also prove of benefit to many others in similar situations. If it's too much to lay out in the open, however, then please feel free to decline.

 Regardless, I'm glad you felt this thread was useful. ;-)

 Be safe,
 Thorn<<<

Hi Thorn:
i'm going to try to answer this as best i can, and thought it would be easier to quote your post, for reference if i get side-tracked <G>, as by the time i got back to this thread, it was on a completely different page than the posting box! (Quite a lot of very interesting posts, too!) i can only hope that what i say will make some sort of sense, and it *is* rather personal--but also ancient history, so the subject itself isn't a hot button any longer. *s*

my mother was very ill when i was a small child, and died when i was 3. my father's family took on the task of raising me for the next several years, and they were a rather taciturn, reserved group of people, which of course influenced my behavior quite a lot (and still does, those being highly influencable, formative years). i don't think it extreme to describe my father's family as "Stoics"--that stiff-upper-lip English, dour Scots-Irish ancestry. i was a precocious and out-going child, but soon discovered that being less so got me more approval than rowdy, inquisitive behavior--and so i adjusted said behavior accordingly, as approval and pleasing was *always* extremely important to me. *s*

When i was 6, my father remarried, and i went to live with him and my new step-mother. my step-mother was from a very large, extended family whom i will very kindly descripe as "trash"--not a word i normally use in the context of people. They were loud, vulgar, uneducated, drank, and--even to my very young perception--did incredibly foolish (and "undignified") things that caused constant turmoil. In defence, i became even more reserved and careful--not quite withdrawn, but very controlled and living very much "in my head". i threw up a wall that kept me mentallly and emotionally separated from them and their constant teasing and baiting, and simply refused--as best i could, being a child--to let myself be degraded, or even drawn into reacting. Hence, anything that i perceive as "undignified" brings back, subconsciously, my abhorance for these people, and that entire difficult time period.

All this has, of course, had quite an impact on my adult life. While i wasn't physically/sexually abused (just lucky, i guess--attempts were made), i was both physically and emotionally neglected, and learned to be self-sufficient at an early age (which also makes it hard to be dependent on another). my verbal communication skills are also pretty bad--i compensate for that by writing whenever possible--and i have a high degree of hyper-vigilence. i don't express emotions easily, never having learned how to get past my own emotional wall that i built for protection--at least, until very recently. *s* And i may never entirely breach it, at least in some regards: it's taken a lot of work--and help *s*--to get this far.

So, in regards to humiliation, it's a pretty touchy area with me. Unfortunately, it's something my Lady has a great deal of interest in; fortunately, she understands that i have some pretty heavy issues with it, and is very cautious and slow when it comes to such--and i trust her not to do me any damage that can be avoided. Trusting someone with my psyche isn't easy--i learned a long time ago that the only person i can trust, completely, is myself--but i've made a great deal of progress towards *unlearning* that particular lesson. *s* Sometimes it's 2 steps forward, 1 back--but i *am* making progress, and intend to take all the time i need to get as far as i can with this particular issue. i just wish it were the only one.

Thorn, if this doesn't answer your questions--or if you'd care for some elaboration--please feel free to ask. *s* As i said, ancient history: it's no longer painful for me to talk about my "childhood". Sorry i couldn't address this post to you, but your name isn't on the menu...

But since i wanted to tell Ms Glory how much i enjoyed her poem <G>, i'll just address it to her, and kill 2 birds with one stone, so-to-speak! Ms Glory, that's amazin' cute! Thanks for sharing!

Take care, all: be safe; be well!

rory

rory,
     Your one of my favorite people that I have met through the net and more specifically, here. You have increased my awarness on some things and opened my eyes on others. I am looking forward to meeting you and your Lady at Mystic Rose Book Day on June 8. Perhaps we can share a Moon Pie and RC together then. Until that fatefull day, I remain,

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair
And A Moon Pie

Deb, good question - this topic seems to of brought out the submissives reasons or thoughts on what humiliation does for them and what it does for Doms, but it didn't bring out much about the positive effects it has on submissives other then "they like or dont like it because....." - I would think it brings things we as submissives cant even begin to describe for one thing in particiular...as Thorn said...its all in the intent...depending on circumstances and reasons it is being done - I know I get a ton more out of wearing nothing but a tight sheer dress in the local grocery store and picking out cucumbers while M whispers in my ear then I do out of flashing the bus load of church goers on the 5 freeway in LA - both done in the same day for seperate reasons - but then again, being humiliated by paying for all my lunches and gas for the week with change vs dollars for screwing up my bank account balance with bad math was a lesson too and it was embarrassing since most of my lunch hours are business related and I wasn't allowed to use a credit card or ATM card - so intent is important.

Uhm, Justin, Hon: i appreciate the offering, but you can have mine, OK? i'm just not at all sure that a Moon Pie is going to work in my mouth, even if the RC Cola washed it down *real* fast! <G> Besides which, i think i might be on a diet then... Uhm, yes: i'll be on a diet! But i appreciate the sentiments: i know you *must* like me, to give me one of your Moon Pies! ;->

i'm looking forward to meeting you in 3-D as well, and plan to have a great time at the book day! Thanks for keeping on me until i did something about it! *s*

rory

To: rory8535

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my inquiry. I appreciate your candor and am glad to hear that you believe the issues you discussed are 'ancient history'.

I'll just leave it there. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

Welcome, of course. *s*

While the events themselves are ancient history, some of the fallout is present and today, of course: i don't know that we ever completely escape it all (or, should i say, i don't know that *i* ever will). It's just no longer as painful. But one deals the best one can, and just knowing where some things come from often keeps them from putting too much of a downward drag on today. And things *do* get better, usually, with time: for myself, that alone has helped to put many things in perspective. *s*

Again, Thorn, many thanks for your clarifying posts--on this subject, and others. i always watch for your comments, as you seem able to take things that are sometimes rather murky to me, and hold them up in a bit clearer light. Always feel free to ask me, if there's something you want to know. Sometimes i learn more from my own answers than i do from the answers of others'! *s*

Take care: be safe; be well!

rory

As a 'foreigner' and not as eloquent with the English language I may have some problems expressing myself. As a long standing submissive I have a lot less of a problem though.
As a full time obedient servant, my goal has always been and is to satisfy my Mistress in all aspects of our 'relationship'. In my perception, humiliation is one of the cornerstones of the relationship between a submissive and a Master/Mistress. Every time that I am brought into a situation one could describe as humiliating, the true relationship is established, confirmed and maybe improved.
I may have put myself in a situation that is unlike the situation of many other submissives. I have made the choice quite a while ago that I will dedicate my life to serving a Mistress, have accepted a permanent state of control and consider pleasing my M'me as the ultimate goal and pleasure. I have accepted to be feminized to the full extend, as she regarded that as a condition of submissiveness, a condition of humiliation that brought out the deeper elements of our relationship. I have difficulties in putting myself into a situation of 'short(er) periods of domination and submissiveness' that may shed another light on humiliation. In my situation of permanent domination, humiliation is a signal of confirmation of my situation, my role and my desire to please, to accept my Mistress's satisfaction in her control of me, at the same time Her need and desire to confirm my willingness to be at her mercy at all times.
I can well imagine that humiliation is a very personal experience, an emotion that is subject to change over time. I remember well that in earlier years, the fact that I had to dress according to her rules was humiliating. Later, the fact that I had to serve her and her friends and guests in the prescribed way provided me with an emotion of humiliation. In my current state of mind, that part of my submissive life is not in any way experienced as humiliating by me, maybe still by my Mistress and I can imagine that it is still in the mind of people contronted with my role and appearance for the first time or once in a while in our household.
Don't assume that my role is that of a French maid, having to dress up every know and than for a short while for the kick of it: I work in live in the household as a 'normal' female, clean, cook and serve on a 24/7 basis.
Humiliation is and I expect will be in the future, a confirmation of my role, my 'relationship' with my Mistress, the attention She is willing to give to the improvement of my submissiveness and if that means that the point of humiliation is pushed out further on a constant basis, that is regarded by me as an improvement of the situation and my ability to be the one I am, my Mistress wants me to be. I couldn't live without it !!
Sylvia

I should have added:
In my experience, the way that male dominants maintain discipline and confirm the role of each of the persons in a submissive/dominant 'realtionship' is much more physical. I have been whipped and physically 'reminded' of my position as a submissive by a male dominant, in the limited cases that I have served in that situation.
As I consider humiliation a part of the disciplinary measures, I have experienced the supereriority of Female dominants in using humiliation in different variations as a strong disciplinary tool, and not only by puting the submissive in humiliationg situations, also, especially in the verbal/non-physical way that I am/have been disciplined............
Could it also be that Europeans have a different way of regarding humiliation than Americans........?? Don't realy know....

To: rory8535

You wrote <<Sometimes i learn more from my own answers than i do from the answers of others'! *s*>>

Imagine that. ;-)

Have a great weekend. Be safe,
Thorn

To: sylvia_milder

Welcome 'a-Board', Sylvia. Thank you for taking the time to relate your personal experiences regarding this subject. I think it has an exceptionally high value in one strategic area which seems to have been missed in all of the discussion on this topic (or at least, not really homed in on): The differences between 'play' vs. 'lifestyle'.

I don't mean to sound like I advocate one over the other, folks. I don't. Each has its place and its own fulfilling aspects. But for myself personally, and particularly regarding humiliation, I think it's important to point out that separating the two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT elements goes a long way towards reducing any of the associated confusion. If you lump 'humiliation' into one big bin, it's incredibly easy to miss the little nuances and therefore fail to grasp its many beautiful facets. But separate the apples from the bananas and, well, you get the idea I'm sure.

Anyway, perhaps I'll develop this thought further at a later time (or maybe someone will latch on and run with it <hint hint>). But for the moment, suffice it to say that playing with humiliating aspects aims for a completely different result than incorporating humiliating aspects into an overall philosophy for living (and I think that thesis was shown nicely in Sylvia's posts above).

Have a great weekend, all. Be safe,
Thorn

I know, I know, this topic was orignally about humilation, but I've really enjoyed some of the turns of conversation.

'Specially the parts about the balance of power between Dominants and a submissive - what is cool, what is co-topping, what is just interacting together.

Ann
who just got back from a biz trip and is tired and grumpy and needs her feet rubbed

Thanks, Kate, for asking,

>humiliation, .... for the submissives, is it just the fact that you are submitting
>and doing exactly what your Dom wants?
>
> Personally I cant see myself eating out of a dish off the floor without freaking out -
>.... but am curious as to what it brings to those who participate

    I'm not a 24/7 sub, in fact I'm the Alpha Male in most of life. But in scenes, I relish submissiveness. The more the better, and it's very sexual. So what I write below is not about 24/7 subs who enjoy being controlled in their life. I'm speaking about my experience and desires in very erotic moments, sex. I'd label myself a Sexual Sub as differentiated from a Lifestyle Sub. Still, some of what I write may apply to most subs.

    For me, it is EXTREMELY pleasing when I'm given sexual humiliation. I think part of the mystery for others might be cleared up by seeing that the humiliation energy can be transformed into pure raw sexual energy. Just imagine for a moment what it is like to have the kind of high-energy that is part of embarrassment and blushing channeled into your genitals. Mmmm.
    For me, when I say I enjoy humiliation, it's not that I like to be miserablized. It's a phenomenon of going into an area I *resist*. For instance, I am proud or jealous and yet at the same time very aroused seeing my love being sexual with another man. So I actually have the preference of seeing all of her sexuality but at the same time have other feelings like jealousy. To get me past the latter, she might tease me, "Ah poor boy is jealous huh? But show us your erection, come on now, I know you like this." So that's humiliating but it's at the same time releasing me from my resistances to something I want. When that happens, *all* of that energy shows up at the same time. I'm 52 and I can tell you, I've checked, it's a lot stronger than Viagra! :-)
    Personally, I can't see myself eating out of a dish off the floor AND SO if my love wanted to see how turned on I am by her, she could easily have me do that by showing me how my desire for her is bigger than anything else. Now neither of us has a fetish for dishes, but DOING such things, even if humiliating, is pretty high-energy. In fact, it becomes, "Especially if it's humiliating." In a small sense, the humiliation becomes the fetish. The fetish of channeling that energy into sex.
    Psychologically, the sub (me) must have some stuff from the past about being humiliated, but doesn't everyone? I think here it's really the sexual sub being willing to go past his/her limits of pride and resistance. And using sexual energy and pleasure as the reward or motivator for doing that. Even very strong or resistive persons can go submissive with the energy of sex as the kicker. (pun intended) As many of us have seen!

Nice space to be writing,
Michael@tantrica.info

PS I think the space of going past one's limits is where sub-space comes from. It's definitely expanding consciousness. Which is why one might suspect getting kinky can be healing. Because it is. Literally. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

Good thinking Michael, and very well explained in your context. its such a wild ride and personally I am enjoying the hell out of finding out who Kate is - not living by anybody's bible but my own in this lifestyle.

Love to all ........Kate

Good evening, everyone. This is my de-lurk message, so I will say it is certainly a pleasure to
engage in discussion with such an articulate, thoughtful, imaginative group.

Looks like this week’s hot topic is hot indeed, and has generated substantial commentary. I think
it’s fair to say that pure sadists and masochists are rare in our community. There are few who are
not at all interested in role-play, appearance, “mind fucks,” or power exchange, but solely get a
sexual kick out of physical pain, who go “ooh” when they go “ow.” For most of us, including me,
the emotional, mental, and even spiritual aspects of D/s sexuality have a huge role.

One important question that has been asked in this discussion is “When is humiliation
bad/wrong?” IMO, one of the most common kinds of bad humiliation results when an
inexperienced/immature dom adopts a “kneel bitch” attitude because he has his own unresolved
self-esteem issues. I am morally uncomfortable with making a slave or submissive feel cheap or
worthless or in trying to damage her self-esteem (using the gender pronouns that apply to my life,
without meaning to exclude anyone else, of course). Rather, to me a good dom should work hard
to let the sub know that she is his greatest treasure, his most prized possession, for which he
would sacrifice all else. Someone in the thread gave the excellent example of a master who takes
his slave to a BDSM club, making her wear a skimpy costume that embarrasses her. Handled
properly by a caring dom who is listening to his sub’s feelings, the humiliation of being exposed in
public *strengthens* the sub’s self-esteem. She feels happy and proud to show the world who she
is, that she has found a master who is strong and caring, that he finds her beautiful and wants to
show her off. Moreover, she knows that by enduring this humiliation, she has given her master
pleasure. As Viktor Frankl puts it, her suffering has become sacrifice, and is thus not merely
bearable, it is ennobling.

The distinction between lifestyle and play is an important one. Good point on that one.

In terms of lifestyle, for a master like me, finding a “true submissive,” a true slave, is like the
master sculptor who searches the quarries of the world for a pure piece of marble, and taking it
home, works lovingly and diligently, at once firmly and gently, to bring out its true form as living
art. Such a “true submissive,” to me, is one with a vagina-shaped soul, one who finds that the
core of her being is defined by an essential hollowness, so that she only finds fulfillment in being
filled and possessed by the will of her master.

In terms of play, humiliation can be a tremendously intense emotion, sparking off lots of other
passions. Particularly when the humiliation is public, it can get to be almost a game of chicken
between dom and sub, with the dom challenging the sub to do it, and then the sub, perhaps, daring
to shamelessly meet the challenge, and in turn daring the dom to push her even further.

Well, bottom line (pun intended), is that an essential rule for me is that my slave know why I am
tormenting her, whether it be physical or mental/emotional. Not very original, to say
“communication is the key to a successful relationship,” but we ought to go on saying it so we
don’t forget. So here, for your perusal and use if you like, is a half-serious, half tongue-in-cheek
humiliation checklist:

I’m doing this to you because:

_____ It is an opportunity for you to demonstrate your love and devotion to me.

_____ It is part of your training, and will help you accept your role as slave.

_____ I am proud of you, and want to show others how beautiful and obedient you are by this
form of public display.

_____ It is a way of testing and expanding your limits, of helping you surrender yourself to me
more fully.

_____ I know that on one level this secretly thrills you; it’s where you kink. I am making you do
it because I know it will make you so horny you won’t be able to stand it.

_____ I am angry with you for disobeying me by ______________________. This is a form of
punishment to teach you never to do it again, and to give you an opportunity to earn forgiveness.

_____ It gives me a thrill of sadistic pleasure to do this to you, which is like a hit of a powerful
drug. You bring out my sadistic streak by looking and acting so _____________________ (e.g.
helpless, innocent, bratty).

_____ Other (What can you suggest that I’ve missed?)

"If you haven't tried these things, you should
These things are fun, and fun is good."
--Dr. Seuss

Well, anyway, thanks to all for letting me contribute my 2 cents. Hope to be a regular participant in the future, if y'all can put up with me....

Z.

P.S. *Great* poem, Gloria. Funny you should mention souls. I collect them, and was thinking of starting a thread on that in the spirituality section.

Welcome from delurk, Z! What an amazing entrance to the Boards :-) Thank you for sharing your insights. Great reading!

*Please* feel free to start up a thread in our Spirituality section. It's been much too quiet over there lately.

best,

Gloria

Dear Z!

is that for Zorro? <smile> very nice entrance indeed....I especially like your "vagina shaped soul" comment - very nice description of how I see my submissiveness....hollow and needing to be filled beyond capacity. Your "playing chicken" is also RIGHT ON with my experiences with humilation - I never felt it was punishment but thought for the most part it was for most folks in this lifestyle....which from this thread I have found out is definitely not true.

Your little sample checklist is equally smart and like Gloria said, "great reading".....

Kate

Hi, i am new to the site and did in fact join because of this topic. i am normally loathe to join sites/mailing lists but this topic is one that is very dear to me.

i live in a 24/7 TPE relationship with a wonderful Master who is 14 years my junior - imagine having to call him Daddy (as i do sometimes) - God i had lost my virginity before he was even conceived.

Humiliation is a major turn on for me, not in the erotic sense but as an aspect of mind control and power.

Caution is needed in this area as in most things in life, trying my baking needs extreme caution. my Master knows me inside out, at the beginning of our relationship hours, if not days, were devoted to the telling of my life story, even now if i remember anything of significance from my past i will tell him.

Why did/do we do this? So he could differentiate between "good" humiliation that will almost instantly start me on my journey into sub space and "bad" humiliation that could harm my self esteem or damage me in some way.

He kept digging into my past (and believe me it was pretty lurid at times) starting with my earliest memory of anything of a sexual nature, quickly follow with my first voluntary sexual encounter at 12 yrs old (why so young? because the man in question wanted to fuck me and i did not know how to say no - i had been led to believe that part of being a "good girl" was granting men free rein on my body.

Being a puppy, eating out of bowls, etc does nothing for me, in private at least there is very little of the physical that would humiliate me. But, verbally he can transport me in a matter of seconds with very few words. i trust him in this, as i do in all things, not to cross the line between humilation and harm .

My Masters knows of all the physical and sexual abuse in my past and would never use any of this to humiliate me as he is aware this could cause damage - these are issues that never really go away and simmer below the surface (for me at least), so he knows they are taboo.

For me humiliation makes me feel like a small child being chastised by its parent, but i have the safety net of knowing that no matter what my Master says/does to humiliate me during a scene - at the end of the time he will care for me and make certain that nothing he has said or done has had any lasting impact on me - that i am back to being the strong and confident woman i was at the start of that day.

LOL enough rambling, i think i lost the thread in there somewhere and know i did not say what i really felt.

min.

min,

"at the end of the time he will care for me and make certain that nothing he has said or done has had any lasting impact on me - that i am back to being the strong and confident woman i was at the start of that day."

excellent concept, and exactly how it should be IMO

While i've been following this with much interest, i didn't think i would have any reason to contribute to this particular thread considering Master had not done anything of this nature yet. Funny how things change when you least expect it ;)

Master and i were watching Family Guy the other night, and they did a short spoof of Mr Roger's Neighborhood. Well, conversation turned to Meow Meow Kitty, with Master getting quite animated about His hatred for this particular puppet. For those who don't recall, Meow Meow Kitty used to say "meow" about every other word, all throughout each sentence. i laughed my ass off at Master going on and on about how that used to piss Him off.

Well, the next evening, purely as a joke, i started talking like Meow Meow Kitty. He just glared at me, which gave me the giggles, and he told me to stop. Of course i had to say "Okay, meow, i'll stop now, meowmeow." Long story short, He made me talk like that damn cat for ONE SOLID HOUR. No amount of begging worked either. "Pleeeeeeease meow let me stop now meow!" my amusement turned straight to humiliation/embarassment after about 10 minutes, and He got the biggest kick out of it. Lesson learned! ;)

kay

I will start with the comment that has taken me since before this thread began to see.......

Humiliation frees me to explore me .........

Having written that ......

i have stayed away from this thread because i really had no idea what humiliation in BDSM really was ......... but was very sure that humiliation was something that i wanted no part of ........ and so ....why read.

Humiliation had always equated to embarrassment ......... embarrassment to a reaction because i was very uncomfortable in a situation that i found myself in and therefore was sure that someone was purposely trying to make me feel unimportant , inadequate, not welcome, unloved, and on and on and on .......... to not being comfortable because i was somehow doing something that i should not be doing, was wrong , was bad, was unacceptable .........to not being like and/or being "too" different to be liked ........... to not being liked because there was something wrong with me ...... to something being wrong with me therefore no one could possible like or love me ...... if i wanted to be liked or loved then i must change ........ i must change into something that can be liked or loved .......... what was wrong with me ......... will i ever be liked or loved.

Needless to say much of these thoughts and attitudes developed over time, creating in me a very low self esteem .......... much confusion ........ doubts about who i really was ......... un answered questions as to what i was doing wrong ....... and again on and on and on.

i did read this thread and i am very glad that i did. As with anything ......... humiliation is different for each of us .... what it does to us as well as for us ......... how we react to it ........ how we internalize it. For me ........ Thorn best stated what has been my biggest hang up with that word as well as why i need what that word represents. INTENT

The intent to help me relearn something ....... the intent to help free me from a demon or two ........ the intent to reinforce an action that i see as a negative in a positive manner ....... the intent to rid me of emotional baggage ....... the intent to help me "let go" of self control that is slowly destroying me ...... the intent of allowing me to shed guilt and shame ....... intent of allowing me to move past a fear by confronting it.

Intent that springs from caring ....... accepting ......... protecting ......... loving .........

Intent that serves to strengthen my trust in my Master ........... serves to bring me closer to the submissive that i am ......... serves to help me see the walls that i have built that need to come down ....... serves to strengthen my resolve to know and be me.

i realize that these words all seems to sound very selfish in that it is "me" that i seem to be talking about and what it is that i will "get" from this ....... that i have no concern for my Master. Yet that is not the case.

Humiliation also gives back to my Master a feeling of power ........ control .........trust ........ and love ....... emotions that serve as a turn on for a Dominant.

There are still confusions in my head about this ........ and i know that humiliation is not something that i could benefit from and/or enjoy in "everyday" situations .. with just anyone.

But thank you also to *****zagreus_devil******

for this comment which is very important to me......

<<<<"Rather, to me a good dom should work hard
to let the sub know that she is his greatest treasure, his most prized possession, for which he
would sacrifice all else">>>>>>

and actually makes all the difference in the world.

and also for your humiliation shecklist.

Storm